;)
Discussion Forum > A True AF / DIT Hybrid That Works!
Mel,
Interesting post - we seem to have taken similar paths! Here is my post about my version of hybrid system - although I didn't articulate it as well as you have done in your post.
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/640880
I have switched back and forth between pure AF & the hybrid system. Both have been very productive for me. I have noticed that the hybrid system works best when I need to really have focus for the day to ensure a project or a few key items need to completed (predetermined "day's work") not necessarily because they are urgent but because they are "standing out" in a big way. I like to work within the hybrid system more than taking these items "offline" from AF. I use paper method right now, so I just mark the item in the margin with a "!" to show that I am working in the hybrid mode. Rest of the days, I just go with pure AF which helps me to move on multiple fronts simultaneously (little & often).
The best part is that I have started a day thinking i was going to follow hybrid method but switched to pure AF method as the day switched on me! And, I have gone the other way too. Very flexible.
Interesting post - we seem to have taken similar paths! Here is my post about my version of hybrid system - although I didn't articulate it as well as you have done in your post.
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/640880
I have switched back and forth between pure AF & the hybrid system. Both have been very productive for me. I have noticed that the hybrid system works best when I need to really have focus for the day to ensure a project or a few key items need to completed (predetermined "day's work") not necessarily because they are urgent but because they are "standing out" in a big way. I like to work within the hybrid system more than taking these items "offline" from AF. I use paper method right now, so I just mark the item in the margin with a "!" to show that I am working in the hybrid mode. Rest of the days, I just go with pure AF which helps me to move on multiple fronts simultaneously (little & often).
The best part is that I have started a day thinking i was going to follow hybrid method but switched to pure AF method as the day switched on me! And, I have gone the other way too. Very flexible.
February 3, 2009 at 19:36 |
Greenchutney
Greenchutney
Hey, Green, we did indeed have a similar idea! I haven't yet failed to finish a day's starred items, but I like your idea of just reverting to standard AF should it be clear that I won't. Another aspect that is very helpful to me is feeling like I've scored a "win" David Allen-style each day I've done all my starred tasks. I'm keeping track of this goal on ToodleDo. I appreciate the feedback on my progress as it motivates me. I'm glad to hear this hybrid works for you, too.
February 3, 2009 at 19:58 |
Mel
Mel
Mel:
Thanks for your interesting description of your system. I certainly don't want to talk you out of something that obviously works for you, but I do have a few concerns about it.
1) One of the features of AF is that it gets the advantage of both open and closed lists. I find the open list feature very valuable because it means that I can spend most of my time near the end of the list and do some very concentrated "little and often" work on the things which are currently live issues for me. But I also periodically have to go back and look at the items I left behind me. It seems that this flexibility is missing in your system.
2) If all you want is a sense of closure at the end of the day, why not just start at the beginning of the list, work through it to the end in the normal AF way, and call that a day's work? I don't see what advantage you get from starring items and producing a separate list. It just seems to add another layer of complication.
Thanks for your interesting description of your system. I certainly don't want to talk you out of something that obviously works for you, but I do have a few concerns about it.
1) One of the features of AF is that it gets the advantage of both open and closed lists. I find the open list feature very valuable because it means that I can spend most of my time near the end of the list and do some very concentrated "little and often" work on the things which are currently live issues for me. But I also periodically have to go back and look at the items I left behind me. It seems that this flexibility is missing in your system.
2) If all you want is a sense of closure at the end of the day, why not just start at the beginning of the list, work through it to the end in the normal AF way, and call that a day's work? I don't see what advantage you get from starring items and producing a separate list. It just seems to add another layer of complication.
February 3, 2009 at 22:49 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark, that's a good question about the end of the list items. I was concerned that I wasn't going to get to those using this approach (because there are more of them), but I am finding that using the rule of allowing myself to do more than one task per page for tasks that are due tomorrow helps as does flexibility to do as I choose when I've finished the list.
Before using my system, I wasn't making it through the whole list on a regular basis as you do. More than twenty pages and limited unstructured time makes it difficult! Because I had no idea what tasks were coming up on the next pages that would stand out, I would spend more time on the pages I tackled first (not even doing more than one task--just spending more time on them), which made it less likely that I'd get through the whole list. Now that I know exactly what I need to do in a day to complete a full cycle, I don't have that problem. I've never been able to spend most of my time at the end of the list. However, I have cleared many of my original pages, so I feel like most of what I'm working on is fairly current stuff.
As I mentioned, I would also get to evening and would hit a page that had several tasks that just didn't fit my energy level or space (like I don't want to go outside in the dark), so rather than dismiss them (something I really don't want to do), I would just quit using the list for the day, even if I hadn't made it through every page. It sounds like you would recommend that I just dismiss all those tasks and move on until I get to a page that has something that stands out. That just doesn't fit how I use dismissing tasks though. It isn't that I'm just plain resistant to those tasks; it's that I needed to have the opportunity to do them at another time of day. Unless I can get through all my pages in a couple of hours (I can't), I'm really at the mercy of my lists to hit these tasks at the right time. In other words, with my system, I can save my reading tasks, errand tasks, cleaning tasks, etc. for times of day that work best for that. I'm not at the mercy of the list to bring those up at convenient times. I know I could also just rewrite the dismissed tasks somehow and put them at the end of the list, but it's honestly the repugnance of having to dismiss tasks that keeps me motivated to get things done. If I make dismissing into just an opportunity to rephrase it and keep it on the list, a big part of my motivation is gone. I only want to dismiss items that I really am not going to do any time soon.
I know you wrote (helpfully) about what people need to do who are either a) not getting through their whole list in a day or b) spending too much time at the end of the list. I'm clearly in the a) camp and just trying to do little and often wasn't getting me through the whole list for the reasons I've just given. This method has finally helped me understand little and often as I have to use it to get everything crossed off. It's certainly possible that I just need to dismiss some tasks rather than try to get them done as I've been doing. It's also possible that this change to the system will not work for me long-term. But for now I am very happy with this approach. It may be a good option for people like me who just can't get through the whole list any other way. If I decide to give up this method, I will certainly let everyone know. :-)
Before using my system, I wasn't making it through the whole list on a regular basis as you do. More than twenty pages and limited unstructured time makes it difficult! Because I had no idea what tasks were coming up on the next pages that would stand out, I would spend more time on the pages I tackled first (not even doing more than one task--just spending more time on them), which made it less likely that I'd get through the whole list. Now that I know exactly what I need to do in a day to complete a full cycle, I don't have that problem. I've never been able to spend most of my time at the end of the list. However, I have cleared many of my original pages, so I feel like most of what I'm working on is fairly current stuff.
As I mentioned, I would also get to evening and would hit a page that had several tasks that just didn't fit my energy level or space (like I don't want to go outside in the dark), so rather than dismiss them (something I really don't want to do), I would just quit using the list for the day, even if I hadn't made it through every page. It sounds like you would recommend that I just dismiss all those tasks and move on until I get to a page that has something that stands out. That just doesn't fit how I use dismissing tasks though. It isn't that I'm just plain resistant to those tasks; it's that I needed to have the opportunity to do them at another time of day. Unless I can get through all my pages in a couple of hours (I can't), I'm really at the mercy of my lists to hit these tasks at the right time. In other words, with my system, I can save my reading tasks, errand tasks, cleaning tasks, etc. for times of day that work best for that. I'm not at the mercy of the list to bring those up at convenient times. I know I could also just rewrite the dismissed tasks somehow and put them at the end of the list, but it's honestly the repugnance of having to dismiss tasks that keeps me motivated to get things done. If I make dismissing into just an opportunity to rephrase it and keep it on the list, a big part of my motivation is gone. I only want to dismiss items that I really am not going to do any time soon.
I know you wrote (helpfully) about what people need to do who are either a) not getting through their whole list in a day or b) spending too much time at the end of the list. I'm clearly in the a) camp and just trying to do little and often wasn't getting me through the whole list for the reasons I've just given. This method has finally helped me understand little and often as I have to use it to get everything crossed off. It's certainly possible that I just need to dismiss some tasks rather than try to get them done as I've been doing. It's also possible that this change to the system will not work for me long-term. But for now I am very happy with this approach. It may be a good option for people like me who just can't get through the whole list any other way. If I decide to give up this method, I will certainly let everyone know. :-)
February 3, 2009 at 23:41 |
Mel
Mel
Mel,
VERY interesting thread and posts. I'm seeking to gel AF and DIT and will consider your experiences and others' contribution.
I'm using ListPro quite successfully for AF and have set up another list to batch ERRANDS and CHORES after I've captured them in AF. Because my work takes me abroad, some taks just cannot be done until I get back home, or vice versa (some assignment stuff only on site/location). So I have a handful of contexts ((4) to assist filtering, but everything starts off in AF mode first.
Right now I have batched several errands for Tuesday morning in Hereford as i'm seeing my optometrist then. I look forward to more posts on this threads, and participating when I have decent Internet connection back in Blighty.
VERY interesting thread and posts. I'm seeking to gel AF and DIT and will consider your experiences and others' contribution.
I'm using ListPro quite successfully for AF and have set up another list to batch ERRANDS and CHORES after I've captured them in AF. Because my work takes me abroad, some taks just cannot be done until I get back home, or vice versa (some assignment stuff only on site/location). So I have a handful of contexts ((4) to assist filtering, but everything starts off in AF mode first.
Right now I have batched several errands for Tuesday morning in Hereford as i'm seeing my optometrist then. I look forward to more posts on this threads, and participating when I have decent Internet connection back in Blighty.
February 4, 2009 at 7:35 |
Roger J (currently in Zambia)
Roger J (currently in Zambia)
Mel, thanks so much for posting this. I think on some days this would really work for me and I am going to try it out. I particularly like the idea of "previewing" specific tasks one is committing to, so that one's subconscious can start working on them the night before!
February 4, 2009 at 18:01 |
Bev
Bev
Mel:
Again I don't want to sound as if I am trying to put you off a system that works for you, but from what you write it sounds as if your main problem is a reluctance to dismiss items in the way outlined in the instructions. This is a very important part of the system.
As well as meaning that you have more items on your list than you can really handle, it also puts you into a vicious circle because your reluctance to move on from a page means that it becomes even more likely that items will come up when it is impossible to do them.
Again I don't want to sound as if I am trying to put you off a system that works for you, but from what you write it sounds as if your main problem is a reluctance to dismiss items in the way outlined in the instructions. This is a very important part of the system.
As well as meaning that you have more items on your list than you can really handle, it also puts you into a vicious circle because your reluctance to move on from a page means that it becomes even more likely that items will come up when it is impossible to do them.
February 4, 2009 at 18:14 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Hi Mel
It's a very interesting concept you have come up with. I can see how that would appeal but my feeling is that, for me, this would be imposing a "must do" structure upon the lists which is where I have always fallen down on systems in the past. I know that not everyone has that problem though with the structured approach.
Is there any reason why you feel using Mark's suggested approach to Martin in another post of just doing one item per page but in the standard AF way wouldn't work as well? It's seems that wouldn't have the "must do" element attached in the same way, although it does seem that a lot of people are saying they actually require that "must do" element in order to avoid procrastinating.
It's a very interesting concept you have come up with. I can see how that would appeal but my feeling is that, for me, this would be imposing a "must do" structure upon the lists which is where I have always fallen down on systems in the past. I know that not everyone has that problem though with the structured approach.
Is there any reason why you feel using Mark's suggested approach to Martin in another post of just doing one item per page but in the standard AF way wouldn't work as well? It's seems that wouldn't have the "must do" element attached in the same way, although it does seem that a lot of people are saying they actually require that "must do" element in order to avoid procrastinating.
February 4, 2009 at 19:16 |
Christine B
Christine B
Mark, I keep rereading this sentence, "...your reluctance to move on from a page means that it becomes even more likely that items will come up when it is impossible to do them," and I just don't understand what you are saying. Not saying I disagree. I just don't get your meaning.
I am certainly reluctant to dismiss items (if that's what you mean by my reluctance to move on from a page) as I thought that dismissing items means that I am admitting I am not going to do those tasks, except for rare circumstances when I am rephrasing them in some way and adding them to the end of the list. I understand that I can keep them dismissed and add a task to "review dismissed tasks." But let me give you an example of what is happening and maybe this will clarify the issue and hopefully you can clarify what you mean by your last statement.
I have bits of unstructured time throughout the day that I can work on my list. Let's say I reach a page that has two tasks left on it that are both errands. These have not stood out on other passes through the page for the same reason they do not stand out now: I only have ten minutes to work on my list before I have to return to scheduled obligations. I do not have time to do these errands now, but I would have time later in the day and in fact am not experiencing any resistance to doing those tasks. One good example might be, "Pick up photos from the developer." Although it's true that I might have done this errand in the course of the week even though I wasn't working on its particular page, I haven't done it for a variety of reasons (resistance actually not being one of them). If I dismiss this task, aren't I really saying I don't plan on picking up those photos any time soon? That certainly isn't the case and in fact, I'd like to go ahead and pick them up later that day! With my approach, I can plan to do that particular task at a time most suitable and can choose to do the quick and easy task now, in between scheduled time.
Maybe I don't have a good understanding of what dismissing means? Are you just taking these items off the radar screen so that you're not looking at them on your regular passes through the list? If that's the case, then I have been operating under a completely different definition for "dismissing" that could explain my need for this hybrid approach. Just to clarify, my definition of dismissing has been that you are clearly NOT going to do this task in the foreseeable future and it should essentially be eliminated from your list of tasks. Using that definition has driven me to get things done that have been sitting forever, because I simply do not want to give up on them. Isn't that a good thing? Or are you trying to use dismissing tasks as a means of determining a limited set of tasks that a person should spend their time on? In that case, I think I would find myself trying to accomplish errands like "pick up photos from developer" at times when I wasn't working on my list, because the odds of hitting that task at a time I'm able to do it are very slim. I certainly have done this with my list, but before now, I've never considered it to be a goal. Is that the goal? If so, it would explain why you think my approach is making it more likely for items to come up when I can't do them. Otherwise, I don't understand. Help! I think the resolution of this discussion can make AF work even more effectively for me. Thanks for your patience.
I am certainly reluctant to dismiss items (if that's what you mean by my reluctance to move on from a page) as I thought that dismissing items means that I am admitting I am not going to do those tasks, except for rare circumstances when I am rephrasing them in some way and adding them to the end of the list. I understand that I can keep them dismissed and add a task to "review dismissed tasks." But let me give you an example of what is happening and maybe this will clarify the issue and hopefully you can clarify what you mean by your last statement.
I have bits of unstructured time throughout the day that I can work on my list. Let's say I reach a page that has two tasks left on it that are both errands. These have not stood out on other passes through the page for the same reason they do not stand out now: I only have ten minutes to work on my list before I have to return to scheduled obligations. I do not have time to do these errands now, but I would have time later in the day and in fact am not experiencing any resistance to doing those tasks. One good example might be, "Pick up photos from the developer." Although it's true that I might have done this errand in the course of the week even though I wasn't working on its particular page, I haven't done it for a variety of reasons (resistance actually not being one of them). If I dismiss this task, aren't I really saying I don't plan on picking up those photos any time soon? That certainly isn't the case and in fact, I'd like to go ahead and pick them up later that day! With my approach, I can plan to do that particular task at a time most suitable and can choose to do the quick and easy task now, in between scheduled time.
Maybe I don't have a good understanding of what dismissing means? Are you just taking these items off the radar screen so that you're not looking at them on your regular passes through the list? If that's the case, then I have been operating under a completely different definition for "dismissing" that could explain my need for this hybrid approach. Just to clarify, my definition of dismissing has been that you are clearly NOT going to do this task in the foreseeable future and it should essentially be eliminated from your list of tasks. Using that definition has driven me to get things done that have been sitting forever, because I simply do not want to give up on them. Isn't that a good thing? Or are you trying to use dismissing tasks as a means of determining a limited set of tasks that a person should spend their time on? In that case, I think I would find myself trying to accomplish errands like "pick up photos from developer" at times when I wasn't working on my list, because the odds of hitting that task at a time I'm able to do it are very slim. I certainly have done this with my list, but before now, I've never considered it to be a goal. Is that the goal? If so, it would explain why you think my approach is making it more likely for items to come up when I can't do them. Otherwise, I don't understand. Help! I think the resolution of this discussion can make AF work even more effectively for me. Thanks for your patience.
February 4, 2009 at 19:39 |
Mel
Mel
Christine, hopefully my last post to Mark will answer your question. For me, procrastination with AF hasn't been a problem. I really WANT to do the tasks on my list. My problem is not wanting to dismiss tasks that I'm not in a position to do. I want to get through all the pages of my list at least once a day as it's recommended. Doing at least one item per page isn't really as much of a "have to" for me as it is a "want to." In other words, I'm not surfing the web and blowing off my list, even without my adjustment; I'm just stuck not wanting to dismiss items simply because I was unfortunate enough to have them come up at the wrong time of day. That's why just doing one item per page the standard AF way wasn't as effective for me.
In a way, I was getting frustrated when I would make great progress on a page and then wham! I was confronted with the next page of tasks that I wanted to do today but simply couldn't do right then. It was frustrating and made me want to put the list away rather than have to dismiss tasks. I'm eager to see what Mark has to say about the definition of "dismissing" as this seems to be the heart of the issue for me.
The rest of you may want to wait to see how this discussion progresses before you try my method. I may be ruining it for you. LOL
In a way, I was getting frustrated when I would make great progress on a page and then wham! I was confronted with the next page of tasks that I wanted to do today but simply couldn't do right then. It was frustrating and made me want to put the list away rather than have to dismiss tasks. I'm eager to see what Mark has to say about the definition of "dismissing" as this seems to be the heart of the issue for me.
The rest of you may want to wait to see how this discussion progresses before you try my method. I may be ruining it for you. LOL
February 4, 2009 at 19:59 |
Mel
Mel
Hi Mel
Thanks for your post. My "gut instinct" for want of a better term, on reading your initial post was that your solution wouldn't work for me but that was purely personal and comes from the fact that I have identified through using AF that it is the restrictive element of any system that increases my procrastination whereas for others it clearly enables them to overcome it. I do realise from your various posts that the issue isn't procrastination and do know what you mean about the dismissing of items issue. I have a page where one of three items outstanding cannot be done because it is dependent on an item on another page so I will have to do something if that is the last item remaining. Maybe it is just a case of how we rephrase or action that type of item - you know, a sort of feeling that we're cheating by rephrasing? For example my item requires phoning my hi-fi supplier because my speaker isn't working but before I do so I need to test the fuse. Having added "buy fuse" to my list and actioned it I cleverly mislaid said fuse! I can easily action the item by just looking up the phone number but have no intention of dismissing the item per se. Similarly you can action your item by scheduling it on your schedule for later in the day, but it does highlight a specific area of deemed "non-dismissable" items.
It seems to me that several of us are finding similar concerns at the same time, when hitting around 25 pages and when finding items that we don't believe "should" be dismissed. I think this has opened up some very interesting questions and I'm sure is exactly the type of issue that needs to be identified in a Beta Test.
I've been trying to find a solution that I think will work for me with items when not going through all pages quickly, but within AF. I don't want to do anything that will lessen the impact of the system; however when we have limited discretionery time sometimes "something just has to be done!" I'm looking at a temporary split from one list to two but that is just an idea. It seems to fit in with the rules in my particular circumstances but if I "tweak" the system in any way I want to do it consciously, as a specific experiment in the same way as you have done, rather than going into stress mode when I don't need to!
Out of curiosity how are we comparing on the page stakes now? I'm on page 26 (nearly 27) but with only one page closed. :-)
Thanks for your post. My "gut instinct" for want of a better term, on reading your initial post was that your solution wouldn't work for me but that was purely personal and comes from the fact that I have identified through using AF that it is the restrictive element of any system that increases my procrastination whereas for others it clearly enables them to overcome it. I do realise from your various posts that the issue isn't procrastination and do know what you mean about the dismissing of items issue. I have a page where one of three items outstanding cannot be done because it is dependent on an item on another page so I will have to do something if that is the last item remaining. Maybe it is just a case of how we rephrase or action that type of item - you know, a sort of feeling that we're cheating by rephrasing? For example my item requires phoning my hi-fi supplier because my speaker isn't working but before I do so I need to test the fuse. Having added "buy fuse" to my list and actioned it I cleverly mislaid said fuse! I can easily action the item by just looking up the phone number but have no intention of dismissing the item per se. Similarly you can action your item by scheduling it on your schedule for later in the day, but it does highlight a specific area of deemed "non-dismissable" items.
It seems to me that several of us are finding similar concerns at the same time, when hitting around 25 pages and when finding items that we don't believe "should" be dismissed. I think this has opened up some very interesting questions and I'm sure is exactly the type of issue that needs to be identified in a Beta Test.
I've been trying to find a solution that I think will work for me with items when not going through all pages quickly, but within AF. I don't want to do anything that will lessen the impact of the system; however when we have limited discretionery time sometimes "something just has to be done!" I'm looking at a temporary split from one list to two but that is just an idea. It seems to fit in with the rules in my particular circumstances but if I "tweak" the system in any way I want to do it consciously, as a specific experiment in the same way as you have done, rather than going into stress mode when I don't need to!
Out of curiosity how are we comparing on the page stakes now? I'm on page 26 (nearly 27) but with only one page closed. :-)
February 4, 2009 at 20:45 |
Christine B
Christine B
Christine, I'm down to 21 pages now from a high of 25. I'm glad that the number is going down rather than up! We seem to have the same definition of dismissing tasks. I'm wondering if that is why we have so many pages?
February 4, 2009 at 20:54 |
Mel
Mel
Mel:
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that the faster you move around the list the greater the range of times that any one page (and the items on it) will hit. So to take an extreme if you passed through the entire list ten times in a day, then there would be ten different times available in the day for the items on any one page to be done. I hope that makes sense.
There's one thing I don't understand about your description of your work. You say that you have 21 pages of tasks, but you frequently have only 10 minutes of discretionary time in which to do them. It sounds to me that you have a very great imbalance between the number of tasks which require discretionary time and the discretionary time you have available. Am I misunderstanding you on this?
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that the faster you move around the list the greater the range of times that any one page (and the items on it) will hit. So to take an extreme if you passed through the entire list ten times in a day, then there would be ten different times available in the day for the items on any one page to be done. I hope that makes sense.
There's one thing I don't understand about your description of your work. You say that you have 21 pages of tasks, but you frequently have only 10 minutes of discretionary time in which to do them. It sounds to me that you have a very great imbalance between the number of tasks which require discretionary time and the discretionary time you have available. Am I misunderstanding you on this?
February 4, 2009 at 21:25 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Christine:
In your example, surely testing the fuse is part of the action necessary for the item "Phone Hi-Fi supplier"? So if you come to the item "Phone Hi-Fi Supplier" and you only had a few minutes, you would spend them in checking the fuse. Then cross the item out and re-enter it.
As far as dismissing items is concerned, don't spend time worrying about whether items should or should not be dismissed. Simply follow the instructions: If no items stand out for you when you visit a page, then all the remaining items on that page should be dismissed. But don't forget that you only have to start work on an item - not finish it!
In your example, surely testing the fuse is part of the action necessary for the item "Phone Hi-Fi supplier"? So if you come to the item "Phone Hi-Fi Supplier" and you only had a few minutes, you would spend them in checking the fuse. Then cross the item out and re-enter it.
As far as dismissing items is concerned, don't spend time worrying about whether items should or should not be dismissed. Simply follow the instructions: If no items stand out for you when you visit a page, then all the remaining items on that page should be dismissed. But don't forget that you only have to start work on an item - not finish it!
February 4, 2009 at 21:32 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Thanks Mark
My problems is that I had to buy a fuse - which I did, but I then put it somewhere safe, unfortunately have no idea where that was ! So now I have to action my "phone hi-fi supplier" task by replacing it with "buy fuse" which is just what I did last time ........ ah, NOW I see - it is a recurring item! :-)
My problems is that I had to buy a fuse - which I did, but I then put it somewhere safe, unfortunately have no idea where that was ! So now I have to action my "phone hi-fi supplier" task by replacing it with "buy fuse" which is just what I did last time ........ ah, NOW I see - it is a recurring item! :-)
February 4, 2009 at 22:13 |
Christine B
Christine B
Hi Mel
You've expressed your hybrid idea very nicely! It's kind of what I've been doing for a while now but my hybrid is less formalised e.g. I'm not making the highlighted items a DIT closed list. (And why didn't I think of using a pencil to mark items, doh!)
In fact I've been using AF much more informally than instructed, practically since the beta came out. This is due, and I'm not making excuses, I think, to a shoulder strain (improving but imposes serious limits on what I can do physically at the mo) and having to ration my PC time (as an RSI survivor!). When it got to the point that I was going to have to dismiss a physical task - but didn't want to as the mind was willing - I put it on a new 'physical tasks' list and added 'check physical tasks list' to my AF list.
Furthermore, some days I go through my pages in random order; what a Rebel :) But, hey, it's still working for me as long as I stick to the 'at least one item per page' rule. I've got about 10 closed, or very nearly closed, pages and about 15 active. (29 tasks per page)
As an obsessive-compulsive-perfectionist kinda person I like the way I'm so relaxed about the system... so although I'm addicted to looking through the whole list far too often, my relaxed approach is actually a big step forward!
You've expressed your hybrid idea very nicely! It's kind of what I've been doing for a while now but my hybrid is less formalised e.g. I'm not making the highlighted items a DIT closed list. (And why didn't I think of using a pencil to mark items, doh!)
In fact I've been using AF much more informally than instructed, practically since the beta came out. This is due, and I'm not making excuses, I think, to a shoulder strain (improving but imposes serious limits on what I can do physically at the mo) and having to ration my PC time (as an RSI survivor!). When it got to the point that I was going to have to dismiss a physical task - but didn't want to as the mind was willing - I put it on a new 'physical tasks' list and added 'check physical tasks list' to my AF list.
Furthermore, some days I go through my pages in random order; what a Rebel :) But, hey, it's still working for me as long as I stick to the 'at least one item per page' rule. I've got about 10 closed, or very nearly closed, pages and about 15 active. (29 tasks per page)
As an obsessive-compulsive-perfectionist kinda person I like the way I'm so relaxed about the system... so although I'm addicted to looking through the whole list far too often, my relaxed approach is actually a big step forward!
February 4, 2009 at 22:41 |
Sarah W
Sarah W
Mark,I have 3 hours a day of continuous discretionary time several days a week. The rest is catch as cat can. When you have 25 pages, that means you can only spend 7 minutes per page to get through the whole list in that time frame. That also assumes I do nothing but my list during that 3 hours--not realistic with 6 kids and a work at home dh. :-) it isn't an option to get more structured discretionary time until the kids are older. I am amazed at what I can accomplish with the amount of time I have.
I could try taking time-dependent tasks off my list and scheduling them instead. I could also try dismissing tasks without worrying about them. Right now the thought of that is making me cringe, however. Unless I have a different definition of dismissed tasks I can see myself trying to work around the system to avoid doing that. I could also try consolidating tasks. For example I have several scrapbooking projects on my list. I could condense them into "Work on scrapbook projects." But I have really enjoyed having many projects moving forward. Any advice is appreciated.
I could try taking time-dependent tasks off my list and scheduling them instead. I could also try dismissing tasks without worrying about them. Right now the thought of that is making me cringe, however. Unless I have a different definition of dismissed tasks I can see myself trying to work around the system to avoid doing that. I could also try consolidating tasks. For example I have several scrapbooking projects on my list. I could condense them into "Work on scrapbook projects." But I have really enjoyed having many projects moving forward. Any advice is appreciated.
February 4, 2009 at 23:28 |
Mel
Mel
Mel:
You seem to be stating exactly the problem that "dismissing" is intended to solve. You have far more items on your list than you have time to do them.
What is your problem with the definition of dismissed tasks? Dismissing a task does not mean you can never do it - it is intended to be an opportunity to reassess the task.
AF is intended to act as a filter so that you can put as much as you like into it, but it keeps only what is really important and feasible at the present time. If you don't dismiss items, you are removing much of the point of AF.
You seem to be stating exactly the problem that "dismissing" is intended to solve. You have far more items on your list than you have time to do them.
What is your problem with the definition of dismissed tasks? Dismissing a task does not mean you can never do it - it is intended to be an opportunity to reassess the task.
AF is intended to act as a filter so that you can put as much as you like into it, but it keeps only what is really important and feasible at the present time. If you don't dismiss items, you are removing much of the point of AF.
February 4, 2009 at 23:44 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Christine:
Perhaps you should rephrase the task as "Sort Hi-Fi Speakers". That will cover all the actions, including the recurrent ones of buying and losing the fuse!
Perhaps you should rephrase the task as "Sort Hi-Fi Speakers". That will cover all the actions, including the recurrent ones of buying and losing the fuse!
February 4, 2009 at 23:50 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark, you're absolutely right as always! I need to treat it as a project!
February 5, 2009 at 0:12 |
Christine B
Christine B
Mark, I really spent some time on "What's your problem with the definition of dismissed tasks" I think I was recalling your instructions for an early system of yours--one where one determined how long it would take to do each backlogged task. You suggested writing them into your task diary sequentially. If you didn't do the task within a couple of days, you said to cross it off and admit you weren't going to do it. I thought dismissal meant I was admitting I would never do it.
Now I think I get it. I did my AF list last night when it was later and only certain kinds of tasks stood out. I dismissed pages with tasks that had nothing that stood out. I am now down to 16 pages and I made it through all of my pages in maybe an hour and a half while still getting some really great things done. When I was finished I had the opportunity to view all my tasks as I do each evening, looking for tasks due the next day. As I did I clearly saw the items that had "dismissed" next to them. I won't be viewing those items throughout the day as they are on inactive pages, but what I noticed was that they STILL didn't stand out to me.
This morning I am looking forward to my lists, but don't expect there to be great numbers of dismissals. I finally feel this balance between not wanting to dismiss tasks and being okay with it. I finally understand why you wouldn't give more than a pretty vague definition of dismissing because you WANT there to be that balance. You don't want people dismissing tasks willy-nilly, but you don't want them resisting it as I was doing.
My program automatically keeps stats on my productivity so I will be able to compare using standard AF with my new approach to dismissing with my hybrid approach and I'll report! Thanks so much.
Now I think I get it. I did my AF list last night when it was later and only certain kinds of tasks stood out. I dismissed pages with tasks that had nothing that stood out. I am now down to 16 pages and I made it through all of my pages in maybe an hour and a half while still getting some really great things done. When I was finished I had the opportunity to view all my tasks as I do each evening, looking for tasks due the next day. As I did I clearly saw the items that had "dismissed" next to them. I won't be viewing those items throughout the day as they are on inactive pages, but what I noticed was that they STILL didn't stand out to me.
This morning I am looking forward to my lists, but don't expect there to be great numbers of dismissals. I finally feel this balance between not wanting to dismiss tasks and being okay with it. I finally understand why you wouldn't give more than a pretty vague definition of dismissing because you WANT there to be that balance. You don't want people dismissing tasks willy-nilly, but you don't want them resisting it as I was doing.
My program automatically keeps stats on my productivity so I will be able to compare using standard AF with my new approach to dismissing with my hybrid approach and I'll report! Thanks so much.
February 5, 2009 at 13:56 |
Mel
Mel
Just to report back in, I gave the "hybrid" a try for 24 hours, and it increased my resistance, so I am scurrying back quickly to "regulation AF" for now. ;o)
February 5, 2009 at 15:50 |
Bev
Bev
Mel:
Thanks for taking so much trouble over this. This sort of experimentation is very helpful to us all - and me in particular!
Thanks for taking so much trouble over this. This sort of experimentation is very helpful to us all - and me in particular!
February 5, 2009 at 20:46 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
It's been very interesting to read this thread.
I also resist "dismissing" things. I am going to try following the instructions *exactly* -- go through each item on the page, working on whatever stands out for as long as I feel like. And dismiss if nothing stands out the first time.
And add to my list: "Follow the AF rules very strictly till you get a better feel for how dismissing is supposed to work"
By the way, if an errand stands out, but I can't do it right now, an easy way to deal with it is put it on my calendar. Or, rewrite it as "find time to do this errand" and cross it off.
I also resist "dismissing" things. I am going to try following the instructions *exactly* -- go through each item on the page, working on whatever stands out for as long as I feel like. And dismiss if nothing stands out the first time.
And add to my list: "Follow the AF rules very strictly till you get a better feel for how dismissing is supposed to work"
By the way, if an errand stands out, but I can't do it right now, an easy way to deal with it is put it on my calendar. Or, rewrite it as "find time to do this errand" and cross it off.
February 6, 2009 at 23:40 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
To deal with Mel's original problem -- making sure you get certain things done during the day -- I've been following a different approach. At the end of the day, or beginning of the day if I didn't do it the night before, I think about what is most pressing, whatever is most on my mind, and I just add it to the end of the list. While doing this, I can just brainstorm off the top of my head, or I can review the whole AF notebook and copy any items that really stand out, to the end of the list.
This accomplishes several things:
- Refreshes my mind on important projects / upcoming deadlines
- Primes my subconscious so that unimportant items won't stand out, only the really important ones will
- Potentially adds duplicates of the important items to the list, which means I'll have the opportunity to work on them more often, even if I don't work on them the next day
This approach works pretty well for me.
This accomplishes several things:
- Refreshes my mind on important projects / upcoming deadlines
- Primes my subconscious so that unimportant items won't stand out, only the really important ones will
- Potentially adds duplicates of the important items to the list, which means I'll have the opportunity to work on them more often, even if I don't work on them the next day
This approach works pretty well for me.
February 6, 2009 at 23:40 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I wanted to report on two days using a pure AF approach. It appears my productivity with the AF tasks themselves is nearly identical to my hybrid approach. However, I have felt almost no pressure using the standard method. Trying to get through the list using my hybrid method was very challenging. Now I get through the list and then some with no stress. I've decreased my pages to 16. It feels much more manageable.
I was even able to complete a writing project by deadline with little stress. I've been writing on it every time it came up in the list. Then on Thursday (due day), I knew I had a little more work to do to finish. Late afternoon I found myself rushing through some pages wanting to get to that writing task. I thought how silly that was so I just started working on it (common sense rule). I finished it and my editor loves it. It's a great feeling to complete projects like this without last minute cramming.
The biggest change I noticed using the pure AF approach is not in how many AF tasks I do, but in how many non-AF tasks I do. I have a folder in Toodledo for my daily tasks. I can see how many of these I do a day, too. I have been having problems doing these daily tasks. They aren't very conducive to AF lists, but I DO have resistance to them. When I was trying to do one pre-planned task per page, I really ignored those daily tasks in lieu of my AF lists. Now my productivity on these daily tasks has doubled!
Mark, I want to thank you for not just saying, "So happy you found a method that works for you." Instead you shared your concerns and I am so very happy to be using this approach in a way that works for me. I am not interested in changing approaches, but one question I'd like to test is: Is standard AF better for productivity than pre-planning tasks for efficiency? The reason I wonder is because I once accomplished a huge number of tasks in an hour because I had a babysitter and planned out the most efficient way of doing them before she left. AF doesn't benefit from this pre-planning in a formal way anyway. If I do test it, I will let you know.
I was even able to complete a writing project by deadline with little stress. I've been writing on it every time it came up in the list. Then on Thursday (due day), I knew I had a little more work to do to finish. Late afternoon I found myself rushing through some pages wanting to get to that writing task. I thought how silly that was so I just started working on it (common sense rule). I finished it and my editor loves it. It's a great feeling to complete projects like this without last minute cramming.
The biggest change I noticed using the pure AF approach is not in how many AF tasks I do, but in how many non-AF tasks I do. I have a folder in Toodledo for my daily tasks. I can see how many of these I do a day, too. I have been having problems doing these daily tasks. They aren't very conducive to AF lists, but I DO have resistance to them. When I was trying to do one pre-planned task per page, I really ignored those daily tasks in lieu of my AF lists. Now my productivity on these daily tasks has doubled!
Mark, I want to thank you for not just saying, "So happy you found a method that works for you." Instead you shared your concerns and I am so very happy to be using this approach in a way that works for me. I am not interested in changing approaches, but one question I'd like to test is: Is standard AF better for productivity than pre-planning tasks for efficiency? The reason I wonder is because I once accomplished a huge number of tasks in an hour because I had a babysitter and planned out the most efficient way of doing them before she left. AF doesn't benefit from this pre-planning in a formal way anyway. If I do test it, I will let you know.
February 7, 2009 at 15:57 |
Mel
Mel
Seraphim,
Very interesting idea. I can see how I can stick with pure AF with your added twist. Thanks for the suggestion.
GC
Very interesting idea. I can see how I can stick with pure AF with your added twist. Thanks for the suggestion.
GC
February 7, 2009 at 21:04 |
Greenchutney
Greenchutney
Hi Seraphim
I think we're on parallel tracks. I, too, like to focus on the most important tasks and pass or dismiss tasks that are secondary to these unless I'm intentionally using them to forward the important ones. I've only been experimenting with this method for a week. I don't think I'll ever change into someone who wants to spend day and night on the list. (Those who also list pleasures and optional work.)
learning as I go
I think we're on parallel tracks. I, too, like to focus on the most important tasks and pass or dismiss tasks that are secondary to these unless I'm intentionally using them to forward the important ones. I've only been experimenting with this method for a week. I don't think I'll ever change into someone who wants to spend day and night on the list. (Those who also list pleasures and optional work.)
learning as I go
February 7, 2009 at 21:13 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
There is another way of combining DIT and AF that I find attractive.
1 Pursue DIT to the best of your ability.
2 To the extent you fail, and accumulate a backlog of tasks, use AF to process it.
1 Pursue DIT to the best of your ability.
2 To the extent you fail, and accumulate a backlog of tasks, use AF to process it.
February 12, 2009 at 8:34 |
David C
David C
This hybrid is original AF with this change. Each evening, review each list as per AF and choose at least one item that stands out. This item is marked. The next day, the goal is to complete all marked items in any order. When you've completed these items, you are free to do as you wish. The next evening, you repeat the same process.
The advantages to my modification include increased productivity, a sense of completion, and more efficient task completion. My productivity has increased 20% over standard AF (and it had already increased significantly with AF). The main reason I am more productive is because I now have a goal of completing every task I've identified the evening before. Previous to this modification, I didn't feel compelled to get any certain number of tasks done. I knew I could quit working on my lists whenever I cared to. Unfortunately, I usually quit working in the evening when I hit a page containing tasks that really weren't conducive to a low-energy, stay-at-home time of day so that I wouldn't have to dismiss them. I'm very goal driven, so having a goal of getting this short list of tasks done has motivated me beyond what I have even expected. Before using this hybrid, I wasn't always getting through every page. Now I am!
The second advantage to this modification is a DIT-like sense of completion. It IS a good feeling to put a page into inactive status, but I know that the list is really going to continue into infinity. There is really no stopping time with an AF list, unless you enforce one for yourself. I really enjoyed the concept of "a day's work" from DIT after which you were done and free to do as you please. This feeling of completion motivates me to see how quickly I can get done.
The third advantage is efficient task completion. I do not pre-plan the next day's tasks, but rather go page by page as AF's instructions suggest looking for an item that stands out. I don't try to choose items that fit together as this would be over-thinking and defeating the purpose of AF. Rather after making my list, I can quickly organize these tasks in such a way as to be more efficient. I do have a separate list of the day's tasks (more on this in a minute), so if I see that I have two cleaning tasks, I will do them consecutively. I can also see that I could watch a DVD while folding laundry. I can leave reading tasks for the evening rather than finding an errand needing to be run on an AF page for the evening.
Now for some implementation issues. How many tasks per page should you choose? That depends on how many you can reasonably complete in a day and on how many pages you have. I have between 23-25 pages active at a time. So doing one task per page is just right for me. It's challenging, but doable. If you have fewer pages and/or more time, you might set a goal for 2 or more tasks per page per day. The goal would be to not choose so many tasks that you will regularly fail in meeting the goal. I am not rigid in the number of tasks per page in that if I have two tasks on a page that are both due tomorrow (and that stand out), I mark both of them for completion tomorrow.
How do you handle routine or scheduled tasks? You can approach these in the same way you do as with standard AF. If you use an index card and choose from it or your daily AF list, use that method. Whatever method you have will work with this hybrid.
What if you get toward the end of the day and you don't want to do one of your selected items? This is a real beauty of this approach because it limits the rebellion that arises whenever we preselect a day's tasks. If you get to an item that you don't want to do, go to the original page the item came from and choose another task that now stands out to you more than the item you've chosen. If nothing else stands out and you still don't want to do the preselected task, highlight and dismiss that page's items as per standard AF.
What if you know you will not have time to do at least one task per page the following day? You have the option of not working your AF list at all. I did this on Sunday and found it really satisfying to have a real day off. The other option would be to work through your AF lists in standard format and wherever you stop, you stop. You'd just continue with the hybrid version planning the next evening.
Here's how to implement this hybrid using paper. I recommend starring or otherwise marking the tasks for tomorrow with pencil or erasable ink. That way if you end up choosing a different task on that page, you can easily erase and mark a different item. If you choose to use a separate list, you will cross items off your separate daily list during the day and will then cross them off your master list at the end of the day. If you choose to use a separate list, you may want to number your original pages and note the page number the items are taken from on this separate list. It makes it quick to locate alternate tasks should you encounter resistance the next day.
This method is very conducive to a digital approach. I'm using ToodleDo to star the items I plan to do the next day. I can easily view a list of only starred items, but I also see what page each item is from originally. Any digital system that can tag tasks with both a page number and some other notation that you plan on doing the item the next day will work. I don't recommend making these items "due" the next day as they aren't really. If you have other true due dates added to your tasks, it can become messy.
I'm eager to see what others think of this approach should they try it. I originally planned on returning to standard AF to see what happened to my productivity after the fact, but I can't bear to! This is working so well. Last night I thought there was no way I could get all of my tasks done, but I suddenly felt very motivated to just do it! It really forces me to think "little and often" which is the major paradigm shift my productivity needed. I can certainly see that there are some people who may not like or need this approach, but that others may respond very well to it. The key is not to use your rational mind when determining which tasks stand out and recognizing that if you encounter resistance to a task the next day, choose an alternate task. Happy productivity!