Discussion Forum > If anyone can offer me any help I would really appreciate it!
I would start looking at the incredible number of threads beneath this one which contain the word "procrastination".
Then I would reflect on whether a bunch of strangers who cannot possibly know the particulars of your situation can be of much help.
Then, after doing that I would cut my post shorter, if I still thought I might be able to be helped.
Then ignore everyone who tells you to take me with a grain of salt.
Then I would reflect on whether a bunch of strangers who cannot possibly know the particulars of your situation can be of much help.
Then, after doing that I would cut my post shorter, if I still thought I might be able to be helped.
Then ignore everyone who tells you to take me with a grain of salt.
March 21, 2010 at 9:19 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Hi, Simon - sorry to hear about your problems. I think if I were one of your clients, I'd appreciate your being honest enough to admit you're overwhelmed at the moment, and I'd be happier to receive an honest estimate of when you could complete the work, rather than being left in the dark and wondering whether I'd ever get my accounts back.
To get to a good honest estimate, you could make your best guess at how long each job would take. You could then decide whether to do a little work on each client's accounts and keep rotating through them, or whether to work on one client's accounts to completion, then the next, etc.
I think that doing the above may help to get over the overwhelm you're feeling, and give you some space to think of a better way of working, in which you allow time for the routine admin, but focus more strongly on the actual accounting work. It shoud hopefully give you practice in estimating how long each job will take, so that you can be more realistic about how much work you take on.
Best wishes.
To get to a good honest estimate, you could make your best guess at how long each job would take. You could then decide whether to do a little work on each client's accounts and keep rotating through them, or whether to work on one client's accounts to completion, then the next, etc.
I think that doing the above may help to get over the overwhelm you're feeling, and give you some space to think of a better way of working, in which you allow time for the routine admin, but focus more strongly on the actual accounting work. It shoud hopefully give you practice in estimating how long each job will take, so that you can be more realistic about how much work you take on.
Best wishes.
March 21, 2010 at 11:06 |
Margaret1
Margaret1
Hi Simon,
Thank you for your detailed post, it makes it much easier to get people to address the situation when they understand your context with some clarity.
I could have written your post about a dozen years ago when I was self-employed as an accountant. My experience was that I hated working alone so much that I procrastinated on my work all the time. I ended up getting an office and hiring someone on contract to work with me. I procrastinated on the work, yet I loved - and still love - accounting mostly because I liked being part of a team effort at work. The procrastination behaviours didn't really resolve until I went to work in a team environment in a corporate setting.
I would suggest as well as examining the kajillion threads on procrastination on here and the posts above that you go a little deeper and look at whether you're really enjoying either what you're doing or the way that you're doing it (ie. working at home, isolated from others, multiple "bosses"...) Mechanics can make you want to do something, but often only temporarily. You have to keep on using the techniques, but then again, sometimes if you do it enough, you change your view of yourself too as a "procrastinator" or not.
I also thrived on "deadline adrenaline" (still do). I'm not sure if that's the case for you? I ended up finding work that was really narrow window deadline oriented where it ended up being a positive, not a negative to be that way. There's ways to manufacture that if that's part of your problem.
It sounds to me that you're still looking at the whole picture when you're talking about contacting your clients, etc. It would probably help if you started to not do that. Can you move all the filing and all the files and whatever to another room or just to get over this mess, go to another location like a library, friend's house or coffee shop with nothing but one client's work and your computer?
Here's a passage from Anne Lamott's book on writing - "Bird by Bird":
"I also remember a story that I know I’ve told elsewhere but that over and over helps me to get a grip: thirty years ago my older brother, who was ten years old at the time, was trying to get a report on bird written that he’d had three months to write, which was due the next day. We were out at our family cabin in Bolinas, and he was at the kitchen table close to tears, surrounded by binder paper and pencils and unopened books on birds, immobilized by the hugeness of the task ahead. Then my father sat down beside him, put his arm around my brother’s shoulder, and said, “Bird by bird, buddy. Just take it bird by bird.”
Good luck!
Thank you for your detailed post, it makes it much easier to get people to address the situation when they understand your context with some clarity.
I could have written your post about a dozen years ago when I was self-employed as an accountant. My experience was that I hated working alone so much that I procrastinated on my work all the time. I ended up getting an office and hiring someone on contract to work with me. I procrastinated on the work, yet I loved - and still love - accounting mostly because I liked being part of a team effort at work. The procrastination behaviours didn't really resolve until I went to work in a team environment in a corporate setting.
I would suggest as well as examining the kajillion threads on procrastination on here and the posts above that you go a little deeper and look at whether you're really enjoying either what you're doing or the way that you're doing it (ie. working at home, isolated from others, multiple "bosses"...) Mechanics can make you want to do something, but often only temporarily. You have to keep on using the techniques, but then again, sometimes if you do it enough, you change your view of yourself too as a "procrastinator" or not.
I also thrived on "deadline adrenaline" (still do). I'm not sure if that's the case for you? I ended up finding work that was really narrow window deadline oriented where it ended up being a positive, not a negative to be that way. There's ways to manufacture that if that's part of your problem.
It sounds to me that you're still looking at the whole picture when you're talking about contacting your clients, etc. It would probably help if you started to not do that. Can you move all the filing and all the files and whatever to another room or just to get over this mess, go to another location like a library, friend's house or coffee shop with nothing but one client's work and your computer?
Here's a passage from Anne Lamott's book on writing - "Bird by Bird":
"I also remember a story that I know I’ve told elsewhere but that over and over helps me to get a grip: thirty years ago my older brother, who was ten years old at the time, was trying to get a report on bird written that he’d had three months to write, which was due the next day. We were out at our family cabin in Bolinas, and he was at the kitchen table close to tears, surrounded by binder paper and pencils and unopened books on birds, immobilized by the hugeness of the task ahead. Then my father sat down beside him, put his arm around my brother’s shoulder, and said, “Bird by bird, buddy. Just take it bird by bird.”
Good luck!
March 21, 2010 at 13:22 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Thank you for your comments, apart from Norman, who obviously thinks he's either witty or clever - he's neither.
March 21, 2010 at 15:54 |
Simon H
Simon H
Simon - Norman is the self-appointed Yoda of this board. If you follow His way, you will be rewarded with a lifetime of fortune, relaxation and productivity envied by all peoples, regardless of race or creed. That He continues to visit this board is a testament to His altruism and faith in us. He does believe we can rise to the occasion.
Seriously though, he does offer some gems, but you have to dig. Other folks on this board are very, very helpful.
I work from home (as well as coffee shops and an office) as well. Home can be a HUGE distraction. So many snares. Check out David Seah's blog - http://davidseah.com/blog/ - for some creative time management (and he works from home and cafes). He also responds to questions, suggestions, etc. Super great guy!
Seriously though, he does offer some gems, but you have to dig. Other folks on this board are very, very helpful.
I work from home (as well as coffee shops and an office) as well. Home can be a HUGE distraction. So many snares. Check out David Seah's blog - http://davidseah.com/blog/ - for some creative time management (and he works from home and cafes). He also responds to questions, suggestions, etc. Super great guy!
March 21, 2010 at 16:13 |
Avrum
Avrum
Norman, you are really something. Enough said. Back to biting my tongue. Jeez!
-David
-David
March 21, 2010 at 18:04 |
David Drake
David Drake
Well said David... I certainly go with my first impression on people like him.
March 21, 2010 at 18:07 |
Simon H
Simon H
Simon,
You might like to think about what you would do if you had just acquired the practice of a disorganised person with your current backlog. This can be a rather more positive mindset.
Most of us would say that the VERY first thing is to stop the backlog building up any further. This may mean looking at systems and at the number of clients, and looking at asking someone else to help (or even finding another accountant for some of them).
Until you have done that, I wouldn't make any promises to anyone. when you have addressed the underlying problems, you can credibly go back to your (remaining) clients and explain the position and how you would like to go forward.
Don't worry about the filing. Just get the first file out. And start. But the important this is to get the first file out.
Do It Tomorrow has a load of great stuff on procrastination. I'd put your order in tonight.
Good luck! You've already taken the hardest step - the first one.
You might like to think about what you would do if you had just acquired the practice of a disorganised person with your current backlog. This can be a rather more positive mindset.
Most of us would say that the VERY first thing is to stop the backlog building up any further. This may mean looking at systems and at the number of clients, and looking at asking someone else to help (or even finding another accountant for some of them).
Until you have done that, I wouldn't make any promises to anyone. when you have addressed the underlying problems, you can credibly go back to your (remaining) clients and explain the position and how you would like to go forward.
Don't worry about the filing. Just get the first file out. And start. But the important this is to get the first file out.
Do It Tomorrow has a load of great stuff on procrastination. I'd put your order in tonight.
Good luck! You've already taken the hardest step - the first one.
March 21, 2010 at 18:52 |
Will
Will
Simon,
Now you're probably feeling overwhelmed by all the feedback! However, there are indeed some gems as Avrum points out, and Norman does make some good points if you can stand his somewhat direct approach.
I would hesitate to broadcast your problem to all your clients, I'd try and start dealing with the one that might have the biggest impact if left untouched for much longer. By all means seek out all the tips and advice on this forum, and then try the one that appeals and works for you as who you are. Be true to yourself, you do strike me as someone with a sense of integrity.
One of the nice things about this forum is that it makes one feel NOT alone, others have similar problems, and procrastination crops up time and again. When I'm not working abroad "in strange places with questionable people", I work in my home office.
Just like Jacqueline states, it's not easy, we have to impose some structure on the situation. Rather than just a "formula", I believe Mark Forster's approach is pragmatic and there is much to learn from this forum.
Beware of too much introspection (says me who falls prey to it sometimes) and analysis, but some reflection can help. I think one of my problems is a low threshold for boredom, I like getting excited and immersed in new things - and suffer by not finishing off obligations etc.
None of us is perfect, including those that scorn our inefficiency.
Now you're probably feeling overwhelmed by all the feedback! However, there are indeed some gems as Avrum points out, and Norman does make some good points if you can stand his somewhat direct approach.
I would hesitate to broadcast your problem to all your clients, I'd try and start dealing with the one that might have the biggest impact if left untouched for much longer. By all means seek out all the tips and advice on this forum, and then try the one that appeals and works for you as who you are. Be true to yourself, you do strike me as someone with a sense of integrity.
One of the nice things about this forum is that it makes one feel NOT alone, others have similar problems, and procrastination crops up time and again. When I'm not working abroad "in strange places with questionable people", I work in my home office.
Just like Jacqueline states, it's not easy, we have to impose some structure on the situation. Rather than just a "formula", I believe Mark Forster's approach is pragmatic and there is much to learn from this forum.
Beware of too much introspection (says me who falls prey to it sometimes) and analysis, but some reflection can help. I think one of my problems is a low threshold for boredom, I like getting excited and immersed in new things - and suffer by not finishing off obligations etc.
None of us is perfect, including those that scorn our inefficiency.
March 21, 2010 at 21:25 |
RogerJ
RogerJ
Hi Simon - I could have written your post myself as well! There are some great points here, and I agree you may have to do some soul searching at some point and also some re-organisation of your priorities. However now should be the time for action before anyone has a serious problem with you not doing some work - the outcome for your clients could be severe if you are late filing paperwork for them, and the quite frankly you wouldn't have a business at all.
Looking at it from the outside here is what I would do:
1. Make a list of all outstanding projects.
2. Identify the projects that will be the most problem if they are not completed soon. - These will become your priority.
3. Do not contact your customers with any half baked excuses or they will run. Make sure if you have to report a delay or problems it is something they can relate to - IT problems, illness or something - just owning up to incompetence is not going to inspire confidence in your abilities no matter how good an accountant you are!
4. Make a plan - with dates - preferrably with daily lists - this may include drafting in some help if you can either afford it, or if you have the resources generally.
5. Once you have a plan then you can confidently talk to your clients.
6. I certainly recommend Mark's books - they are packed full of tips you can implement as you go along. One of his great ideas is to ring fence a problem area (for example the filing) and then to make it a 'current intiative' which mean you spend a small amount of time on it first thing every day and clear it as quickly as possibly.
Good luck Simon - and let us know how you get on!
Looking at it from the outside here is what I would do:
1. Make a list of all outstanding projects.
2. Identify the projects that will be the most problem if they are not completed soon. - These will become your priority.
3. Do not contact your customers with any half baked excuses or they will run. Make sure if you have to report a delay or problems it is something they can relate to - IT problems, illness or something - just owning up to incompetence is not going to inspire confidence in your abilities no matter how good an accountant you are!
4. Make a plan - with dates - preferrably with daily lists - this may include drafting in some help if you can either afford it, or if you have the resources generally.
5. Once you have a plan then you can confidently talk to your clients.
6. I certainly recommend Mark's books - they are packed full of tips you can implement as you go along. One of his great ideas is to ring fence a problem area (for example the filing) and then to make it a 'current intiative' which mean you spend a small amount of time on it first thing every day and clear it as quickly as possibly.
Good luck Simon - and let us know how you get on!
March 21, 2010 at 23:24 |
Alison R
Alison R
RogerJ
"Beware of too much introspection (says me who falls prey to it sometimes) and analysis"
Important. If you have to be consumed with yourself, best to do it with someone else, so they can keep the extremity of your vanities in some reasonable context.
I find this is where someone who cares enough to be "direct" and honest is handy. Folks who are willing to risk the sometime pain of honest intimacy are rare. When you find them, treasure them more than all else.
I fall prey to the vanity of introspection too often and avoid the pain of extrospection more so.
"Beware of too much introspection (says me who falls prey to it sometimes) and analysis"
Important. If you have to be consumed with yourself, best to do it with someone else, so they can keep the extremity of your vanities in some reasonable context.
I find this is where someone who cares enough to be "direct" and honest is handy. Folks who are willing to risk the sometime pain of honest intimacy are rare. When you find them, treasure them more than all else.
I fall prey to the vanity of introspection too often and avoid the pain of extrospection more so.
March 22, 2010 at 3:48 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Simon H -
When I've been in a situation like that, I've found these Do It Tomorrow principles to be helpful:
(1) Declare a backlog. Take all of those clients and other work that you are so behind on, and put them in a pile somewhere off to the side. (Figuratively or literally, your choice!) :-) This becomes your Backlog. DO NOT ADD to this backlog -- it is a Closed List.
(2) Stay current on all new incoming work. If necessary, adjust your systems for processing work, so you can actually do this. Otherwise you'll soon have a NEW backlog.
(3) Your Backlog becomes your "Current Initiative". That means, first thing every day, work on your backlog -- for at least N minutes, where you decide ahead of time how much N will be (keep it consistent). In this way, the backlog will get smaller every day. This is encouraging and makes you want to just get it done.
This approach has really helped me dig out of some deep holes. Maybe it will help you, too.
If I were a client in a situation like that, I really wouldn't want you to call me and apologize and tell me it's still going to take longer but you can't give me a specific date. I'd rather hear nothing, than get a call like that.
On the other hand, if you do have clients calling and complaining, you can put them at the top of your Backlog pile. This can help you estimate when you can actually have their work done, so you can know what to tell them.
I don't think clients are interested in why you've been procrastinating, or that you are struggling to fix it. They really just want results. At least, when I am a client, that's what I want. But I'm an INTJ and we're kinda weird, from what I hear. :-)
When I've been in a situation like that, I've found these Do It Tomorrow principles to be helpful:
(1) Declare a backlog. Take all of those clients and other work that you are so behind on, and put them in a pile somewhere off to the side. (Figuratively or literally, your choice!) :-) This becomes your Backlog. DO NOT ADD to this backlog -- it is a Closed List.
(2) Stay current on all new incoming work. If necessary, adjust your systems for processing work, so you can actually do this. Otherwise you'll soon have a NEW backlog.
(3) Your Backlog becomes your "Current Initiative". That means, first thing every day, work on your backlog -- for at least N minutes, where you decide ahead of time how much N will be (keep it consistent). In this way, the backlog will get smaller every day. This is encouraging and makes you want to just get it done.
This approach has really helped me dig out of some deep holes. Maybe it will help you, too.
If I were a client in a situation like that, I really wouldn't want you to call me and apologize and tell me it's still going to take longer but you can't give me a specific date. I'd rather hear nothing, than get a call like that.
On the other hand, if you do have clients calling and complaining, you can put them at the top of your Backlog pile. This can help you estimate when you can actually have their work done, so you can know what to tell them.
I don't think clients are interested in why you've been procrastinating, or that you are struggling to fix it. They really just want results. At least, when I am a client, that's what I want. But I'm an INTJ and we're kinda weird, from what I hear. :-)
March 22, 2010 at 5:15 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I am going to come at this from a slightly different perspective. Quite frankly if you are in danger of missing important tax deadlines for your clients your entire practice and livelihood is at risk. I would immediately hire someone to come in an help you get the work done. Yes, it will impact your profit for this year, but if you have a bunch of dissatisfied client your profit will suffer next year when they leave you. You may find that your strength is in marketing and client service and not in cranking out the work and actually scale up your practice making it more profitable in the long run.
This problem will not be solved by making lists, it will be solved by some tough reflection and planning.
Good luck
Gerry
http://www.simple-time-management.com
This problem will not be solved by making lists, it will be solved by some tough reflection and planning.
Good luck
Gerry
http://www.simple-time-management.com
March 22, 2010 at 14:48 |
Gerry
Gerry
Seraphim
<<I'm an INTJ and we're kinda weird>>
See Seraphim, we have a lot in common. I am a ENTP. Similar, just a lot more annoying.
<<I'm an INTJ and we're kinda weird>>
See Seraphim, we have a lot in common. I am a ENTP. Similar, just a lot more annoying.
March 22, 2010 at 19:16 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
LOL
March 22, 2010 at 19:36 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Thank you all very much for your opinions.
If Mark is here I would love to hear his take on my situation, but in the meantime a big 'thank you' to everyone else.
If Mark is here I would love to hear his take on my situation, but in the meantime a big 'thank you' to everyone else.
March 23, 2010 at 15:28 |
Simon H
Simon H
Simon, here's another thread that might be helpful:
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/845918#post846002
There was also a thread some time ago that you might find helpful. I think you might benefit from a closed list approach to say that you've done enough for the day if the temptation is too strong to beat yourself up for not getting everything done as quickly as you'd like.
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/160237#post752382
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/845918#post846002
There was also a thread some time ago that you might find helpful. I think you might benefit from a closed list approach to say that you've done enough for the day if the temptation is too strong to beat yourself up for not getting everything done as quickly as you'd like.
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/160237#post752382
March 23, 2010 at 15:55 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Seraphim ... I thought that we INTPs were the most odd!
Norman ... see, and I also thought INTPs were the most annoying. At least you Es are out there communicating. It is the "I"s you have to be wary of ... always hanging back and ... watching ... lurking ... observing ... judging ... ;-)
BTW, Norman, while I agree with others that you can be a pest at times ;-) I would NOT advise anyone to ignore what you have to say ... out of hand. Out of any 10 of your posts, at least 9 have something seriously valuable in them. (And the delete key works for anything else ;-) Anyway, thanks for your continued contributions and valuable insight.
Norman ... see, and I also thought INTPs were the most annoying. At least you Es are out there communicating. It is the "I"s you have to be wary of ... always hanging back and ... watching ... lurking ... observing ... judging ... ;-)
BTW, Norman, while I agree with others that you can be a pest at times ;-) I would NOT advise anyone to ignore what you have to say ... out of hand. Out of any 10 of your posts, at least 9 have something seriously valuable in them. (And the delete key works for anything else ;-) Anyway, thanks for your continued contributions and valuable insight.
March 24, 2010 at 11:05 |
Mike
Mike
INTJ, ENTP, INTP... it's all NT at core. Together we make up only 12% of the population, surrounded by all those incomprehensible SPs and SJs. :-)
And Mike, unfortunately the delete key doesn't work on this forum. Otherwise I completely agree. :-)
And Mike, unfortunately the delete key doesn't work on this forum. Otherwise I completely agree. :-)
March 24, 2010 at 19:29 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
It's all clear to me now.
http://www.personalitypage.com/ENTP_per.html
Apologies for the hijack Simon.
http://www.personalitypage.com/ENTP_per.html
Apologies for the hijack Simon.
March 24, 2010 at 19:41 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Seraphim,
Yeah, NTs. We may only be 12% but we are the 12% that come up with the ideas that the other 88% use to make their lives better ;-)
Oh, the delete key, no, but the "page down" key works well enough ;-)
Yeah, NTs. We may only be 12% but we are the 12% that come up with the ideas that the other 88% use to make their lives better ;-)
Oh, the delete key, no, but the "page down" key works well enough ;-)
March 24, 2010 at 19:48 |
Mike
Mike
Truly that whole Meyers-Briggs is nonsense. But because I have worked for companies who think this can somehow help employees to get a long, I have a history of my development:
I am nearly 50/50 E/I with E by a nose nowadays. Used to be more 75/25
N to the max.
T/F much like E/I. Once I came back an F, what was I thinking? Used to be more 80/20.
Full on P.
Firmly getting focused on reality and having someone directly point out when I start getting all fantastic and theoretical is invaluable.
Btw, it has been shown that everyone want to be one of the Ns, since a lot of the qualities are so valued in Western culture.
I thank God everyday for SJs although I call them "charitable and supportive people". Friend had a heart attack yesterday and I watched many wonderful nurses fully present, caring, and efficient amid all the insanity of a cardiac care unit.
I am nearly 50/50 E/I with E by a nose nowadays. Used to be more 75/25
N to the max.
T/F much like E/I. Once I came back an F, what was I thinking? Used to be more 80/20.
Full on P.
Firmly getting focused on reality and having someone directly point out when I start getting all fantastic and theoretical is invaluable.
Btw, it has been shown that everyone want to be one of the Ns, since a lot of the qualities are so valued in Western culture.
I thank God everyday for SJs although I call them "charitable and supportive people". Friend had a heart attack yesterday and I watched many wonderful nurses fully present, caring, and efficient amid all the insanity of a cardiac care unit.
March 25, 2010 at 1:54 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Norman, I wonder if you have ever considered exploring Enneagram typing further? I'm sure you dissed it somewhere months ago but it's much more interesting than MBTI. It offers more of a personal development tool which provides a greater range of options (ie. getting out of your type a bit) and might appeal to the slight glimpses of the mystic I see in you.
March 25, 2010 at 3:47 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Ah Norman, my ole buddy, my ole pal. Here we go ;-)
Firstly, what a company hopes to do with something or what it thinks of its use has nothing at all to do with the value that thing can be to others. Agreed? IBM paid for me to get tested and learn MBTI for a week ... but I saw no evidence that it made any better use of my unique talents as exposed by my typing. Companies like to waste money that way.
Next, realize that personality type can be (at least in some limited range) contextual. At work I usually acted as an "E" ... but I actually tested as an "I". I was tested by an "official" tester (LOL ... what a scam that is ;-) but she was good and worked hard at getting it right. And that made loads of sense. I HAD to be an "E" at IBM, I mean, nothing else would have worked. I was making sales presentations and giving classes and running teams. So what you appear to be and what you really are may be two different things.
Next, realize that all theories of personality are just that ... theories ... to the extent that they try to explain anything. MBTI simply DESCRIBES ... it does not do much explaining. And you have to admit, don't you, that people are different and you need a way to put that difference in words. In your post you describe nurses as caring. O.K. fine. Then you call them SJs. Still fine. Who cares how you label them just so we understand you? MBTI gives a language to personality observations that is more rich than just "caring" or "selfish" or "solitary".
Another thing to consider is that if you work at it, you can make any system that describes personality work for you. IOW, I have seen people adept in astrology and palmistry, and reading tea leaves get as close to nailing how I feel about life as any other personality system. It has more to do with the ability to perceive and project, than anything else. A lot of factors are working here.
Jacqueline suggests you look into the Enneagram of Personality, if you have not already done so. I concur. I like it better as a way to explain personality and it is at least as good as MBTI to describe it. It is more dynamic than the MBTI in that it has associated spiritual practices to help you "move" along the path of personal growth. (Basically not get stuck in the weaker attributes of your "type" and build on the stronger ones.) It is also somewhat more mystical in its history ... being linked to Sufi mystics and the Jesuit priesthood. Be that as it may, it has given me a much better predictor of future behavior than MBTI, though I find MBTI works reasonably well. But even on the basis of parsimony, nine types are better than 16 ... if the nine explain it all.
But then Mark calls me a closet mystic myself ... so ... back to my tea leaves. ;-)
Firstly, what a company hopes to do with something or what it thinks of its use has nothing at all to do with the value that thing can be to others. Agreed? IBM paid for me to get tested and learn MBTI for a week ... but I saw no evidence that it made any better use of my unique talents as exposed by my typing. Companies like to waste money that way.
Next, realize that personality type can be (at least in some limited range) contextual. At work I usually acted as an "E" ... but I actually tested as an "I". I was tested by an "official" tester (LOL ... what a scam that is ;-) but she was good and worked hard at getting it right. And that made loads of sense. I HAD to be an "E" at IBM, I mean, nothing else would have worked. I was making sales presentations and giving classes and running teams. So what you appear to be and what you really are may be two different things.
Next, realize that all theories of personality are just that ... theories ... to the extent that they try to explain anything. MBTI simply DESCRIBES ... it does not do much explaining. And you have to admit, don't you, that people are different and you need a way to put that difference in words. In your post you describe nurses as caring. O.K. fine. Then you call them SJs. Still fine. Who cares how you label them just so we understand you? MBTI gives a language to personality observations that is more rich than just "caring" or "selfish" or "solitary".
Another thing to consider is that if you work at it, you can make any system that describes personality work for you. IOW, I have seen people adept in astrology and palmistry, and reading tea leaves get as close to nailing how I feel about life as any other personality system. It has more to do with the ability to perceive and project, than anything else. A lot of factors are working here.
Jacqueline suggests you look into the Enneagram of Personality, if you have not already done so. I concur. I like it better as a way to explain personality and it is at least as good as MBTI to describe it. It is more dynamic than the MBTI in that it has associated spiritual practices to help you "move" along the path of personal growth. (Basically not get stuck in the weaker attributes of your "type" and build on the stronger ones.) It is also somewhat more mystical in its history ... being linked to Sufi mystics and the Jesuit priesthood. Be that as it may, it has given me a much better predictor of future behavior than MBTI, though I find MBTI works reasonably well. But even on the basis of parsimony, nine types are better than 16 ... if the nine explain it all.
But then Mark calls me a closet mystic myself ... so ... back to my tea leaves. ;-)
March 25, 2010 at 8:03 |
Mike
Mike
This seems so typical of this forum. Someone asks for some genuine advice and it gets completely taken over by people chatting to each other.
March 25, 2010 at 9:16 |
Fred C
Fred C
Seems typical of ALL forums to me. And then there are always those who can't just ignore what they don't like. I've never understood that behavior. Maybe someday?
March 25, 2010 at 9:24 |
Mike
Mike
A certain amount of off-topic chat is unavoidable in most forums,
however one solution is to have an "Anything and Everything" thread where people can go and discuss - well, anything and everything, thereby leaving the "Please help" threads somewhat more chat-free than they are now. Mark of course should have the last word, but I think that would be acceptable to all parties here.
however one solution is to have an "Anything and Everything" thread where people can go and discuss - well, anything and everything, thereby leaving the "Please help" threads somewhat more chat-free than they are now. Mark of course should have the last word, but I think that would be acceptable to all parties here.
March 25, 2010 at 9:57 |
clara
clara
Clara,
Have you ever known that to work? I own several forums myself and people can't even be bothered to change the subject line ... and I'm the worst offender!
I note that in this thread, the original poster received lots of good advice, which he was thankful for. Chit-chat on the end of the thread hardly detracts from good advice already given.
In any case, I just love the self-appointed referees who chastise those who are not living life to its maximum potential ... as decided by those referees. LOL ;-)
Have you ever known that to work? I own several forums myself and people can't even be bothered to change the subject line ... and I'm the worst offender!
I note that in this thread, the original poster received lots of good advice, which he was thankful for. Chit-chat on the end of the thread hardly detracts from good advice already given.
In any case, I just love the self-appointed referees who chastise those who are not living life to its maximum potential ... as decided by those referees. LOL ;-)
March 25, 2010 at 10:12 |
Mike
Mike
Hi Mike,
I have moderated on a couple of forums, one of which was rather strict about its On/Off Topic threads, and yes, I agree, trying to steer chats back onto the straight and narrow of the Designated Topic was a Herculean and thankless task ;-)
Most forums are melting pots where people of all ages, races, sexual persuations and personality types come together. It would be a miracle if everyone got on well with everyone else the whole time. Cutting a few miles of slack is the best remedy. That, and turning the computer off and enjoying Real Life for a while.
Just my wildly off-topic two cents ;-)
I have moderated on a couple of forums, one of which was rather strict about its On/Off Topic threads, and yes, I agree, trying to steer chats back onto the straight and narrow of the Designated Topic was a Herculean and thankless task ;-)
Most forums are melting pots where people of all ages, races, sexual persuations and personality types come together. It would be a miracle if everyone got on well with everyone else the whole time. Cutting a few miles of slack is the best remedy. That, and turning the computer off and enjoying Real Life for a while.
Just my wildly off-topic two cents ;-)
March 25, 2010 at 10:44 |
clara
clara
Amen to all of that, Clara. Some people, Type 1, The Reformer, in Enneaspeak, just have to have other people line up their ducks in the same row as everyone else. One of those "you must color inside the lines" kind of things ;-) That is the beauty of becoming aware of personality theory, maybe you don't know why people do what they do, but you kind of know what to expect ... sometimes ... maybe. ;-)
As to forum management ... yeah, it is like herding cats. It often pays to just grin and bear it.
As to forum management ... yeah, it is like herding cats. It often pays to just grin and bear it.
March 25, 2010 at 11:04 |
Mike
Mike
ISTJ myself, but definitely not the sort of SJ Norm really appreciates. I'm probably too much I and T to meet that objective.
March 25, 2010 at 12:18 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Enneaspeak is not among my speciality subjects I'm afraid. I'm just a B.A. with a G.S.O.H, recovering from R.S.I. and who enjoys life afk.
;-)
;-)
March 25, 2010 at 12:34 |
clara
clara
Do you all believe in astrology as well?
OK back on topic!
IF ANYONE CAN OFFER ME ANY HELP I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT!
OK back on topic!
IF ANYONE CAN OFFER ME ANY HELP I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT!
March 25, 2010 at 12:40 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
If Simon's still here (apologies again Simon), I for one would like an update as to how everything has been going the last few days. Did anything suggested work for you? Or did you find your own solution?
March 25, 2010 at 14:22 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Ah, but you're not Norman ... you can't be ... Norman does not need all caps to make his points. LOL ;-) And he would certainly not stick to the topic. Not Noman ;-)
March 25, 2010 at 17:22 |
Mike
Mike
Norman doesn't need to stick to the topic...Norman is the topic. :)
March 25, 2010 at 17:37 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
vegheadjones:
"Norman doesn't need to stick to the topic...Norman is the topic. :)"
It's like you . . . you know me. *single tear*
"Norman doesn't need to stick to the topic...Norman is the topic. :)"
It's like you . . . you know me. *single tear*
March 25, 2010 at 17:44 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Mike wrote:
<<<IBM paid for me to get tested and learn MBTI for a week ... but I saw no evidence that it made any better use of my unique talents as exposed by my typing. Companies like to waste money that way.>>>
It probably helped them avoid a lawsuit. That's usually what ostensibly nonsensical policies are for. Maybe they needed to head off future "personality discrimination" suits from disgruntled former employees or something.
Only partially tongue-in-cheek... :-)
<<<IBM paid for me to get tested and learn MBTI for a week ... but I saw no evidence that it made any better use of my unique talents as exposed by my typing. Companies like to waste money that way.>>>
It probably helped them avoid a lawsuit. That's usually what ostensibly nonsensical policies are for. Maybe they needed to head off future "personality discrimination" suits from disgruntled former employees or something.
Only partially tongue-in-cheek... :-)
March 25, 2010 at 17:57 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Yeah, that is probably true. It was kind of sureal watching IBM degenerate from being an almost legendary company to one that I almost felt ashamed to be working for. But then, who knows if the legends are true. By the time I got there all I saw was the incredible corruption. One writer on IBM put it this way: "Only a company as rich as IBM could afford to make such stupid and costly mistakes and survive the experience." Very true.
But back to your point, I'll bet that had something to do with it.
But back to your point, I'll bet that had something to do with it.
March 25, 2010 at 18:05 |
Mike
Mike
Fred C.
"This seems so typical of this forum. Someone asks for some genuine advice and it gets completely taken over by people chatting to each other."
I've been on the internetz before we had tubes for the web. This is how is always has been. There is a reason:
Most forums / newsgroups deal with subjects that ain't too complicated. Most posters on forums could just cut and paste their "advice" for nearly every question.
And frankly, I believe it is the off-topic (nothing ever really is) where people get the most outta groups and boards. Personalities are shown and relationships develop and the strange intimacy and anonymity allow for a certain candor that other places do not.
Plus it is fun.
Of course, some don't like candor, truth, off-topic stuff, or even fun.
Newgroups with a decent reader were easier to manage the off to on topic ration, but that's not the case here.
"This seems so typical of this forum. Someone asks for some genuine advice and it gets completely taken over by people chatting to each other."
I've been on the internetz before we had tubes for the web. This is how is always has been. There is a reason:
Most forums / newsgroups deal with subjects that ain't too complicated. Most posters on forums could just cut and paste their "advice" for nearly every question.
And frankly, I believe it is the off-topic (nothing ever really is) where people get the most outta groups and boards. Personalities are shown and relationships develop and the strange intimacy and anonymity allow for a certain candor that other places do not.
Plus it is fun.
Of course, some don't like candor, truth, off-topic stuff, or even fun.
Newgroups with a decent reader were easier to manage the off to on topic ration, but that's not the case here.
March 25, 2010 at 18:05 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
>>> It's like you . . . you know me. *single tear* <<<
Crocodile? Oh, wait, that's off-topic. ;-)
Crocodile? Oh, wait, that's off-topic. ;-)
March 25, 2010 at 18:06 |
Mike
Mike
Well, as usual, Norman has nailed it. I could not have said it better. It is exactly the "friendships" we have here that allow us to be so helpful to each other.
March 25, 2010 at 18:09 |
Mike
Mike
Norman, man -- Iyou are a "Class A" Bummer. That's not a putdown either. Far from it. I admire your ability to bring other people down to size and bring the conversation back to what really matters. It's an art, isn't it? Plus, you're so honest which is always refreshing in cyberspace. I know you know what I mean, and I dig what you're doing, truly.
You have my deepest respect.
Steve.
You have my deepest respect.
Steve.
March 25, 2010 at 18:27 |
Steve
Steve
Internet. Serious Business.
http://drunkenachura.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/internet-serious-business.jpg
http://drunkenachura.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/internet-serious-business.jpg
March 25, 2010 at 18:35 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Being serious for a moment, this forum has always been more conversational and digressive than most. It is not and never has been a strictly moderated database. It has been generally tolerant. The Overlord has on occasional switched off behaviour of which he disapproves and tidies up the spam.
There is a search engine of sorts (and I wish the best of luck to any hardy soul who tries it) but the best search is simply to ask again. We love to talk.
We won't mind if the same question has been discussed ten times before. Most of them have.
There is a search engine of sorts (and I wish the best of luck to any hardy soul who tries it) but the best search is simply to ask again. We love to talk.
We won't mind if the same question has been discussed ten times before. Most of them have.
March 25, 2010 at 19:53 |
Will
Will
And our spelling is dodgy and we don't always read all the detail of the preceding comments. Sorry, Norman.
And, Fred, Simon did get a fair helping of genuine advice before the rot set in.
And, Fred, Simon did get a fair helping of genuine advice before the rot set in.
March 25, 2010 at 19:58 |
Will
Will
God forbid some one uses the search function of even better:
google expression = site:http://www.markforster.net/forum/ term term term . . .
First search I suggest for all to start with:
site:http://www.markforster.net/forum/ norman
google expression = site:http://www.markforster.net/forum/ term term term . . .
First search I suggest for all to start with:
site:http://www.markforster.net/forum/ norman
March 25, 2010 at 20:01 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Norman,
As you made me curious on why you want us to search on Norman, I tried through Google, .... what people say to you surfaced. So, the new Von Stroheim? Or is it just to show that searching is pointless?
As you made me curious on why you want us to search on Norman, I tried through Google, .... what people say to you surfaced. So, the new Von Stroheim? Or is it just to show that searching is pointless?
March 25, 2010 at 20:52 |
Damien
Damien
Not a native speaker of English, German my guess?
In any case it was an attempt at humor, irony, specifically self-deprecation. My German here fails me . . . sich selbst oft durch Ironie wtizig abwerten oder vielleicht einfach "Selbstironie"? Mein Deutsch hat's sich voll verschlechtert.
Also, I was trying to be helpful. Many times google does a better job of indexing sites than the native indexing algorithm, if not as frequently. Folks are often ignorant of google's more robust search features.
In any case it was an attempt at humor, irony, specifically self-deprecation. My German here fails me . . . sich selbst oft durch Ironie wtizig abwerten oder vielleicht einfach "Selbstironie"? Mein Deutsch hat's sich voll verschlechtert.
Also, I was trying to be helpful. Many times google does a better job of indexing sites than the native indexing algorithm, if not as frequently. Folks are often ignorant of google's more robust search features.
March 25, 2010 at 23:10 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
I do have a problem with time management, particularly procrastination, I always seem to find time to clear my e-mails, check my bank account, return most of my telephone calls within 24 hours, it's the actual nitty-gritty work I struggle with.
I am an accountant by the way, I have lots of projects on the go at the moment but just can't get round to starting them.
I have decided enough is enough as I think some of my clients are getting tired of waiting for me.
I am expecting calls or e-mails from them any minute, do you think contacting them explaining the situation, that I have taken on too much but now intend to streamline my business, asking them to bear with me for another week or so, is a good idea?
I have projects that clients are waiting for, that the Inland Revenue are waiting for, I just seem to come up with excuse after excuse.
I hope no-one will judge me on this forum, everyone seems so nice hence me writing this, it's just to get everyone's opinion on how I can take the first step to moving forward, whether anyone thinks I should explain to clients what's happening, that sort of thing.
I have quite a good business but have literally taken on too much, procrastinated too much, now I have a huge number of outstanding projects together with a mountain of filing, so I just looking for some advice/tips from all you good people as to where I should go from here, I just don't know which way to turn!
I work from home by the way, as you probably guessed!