Get Everything Done

Does anyone get so bad with procrastination and anxiety that they're afraid to even look at their list(s) (regardless of whether using DIT, AF, DWM, GTD or anything else)?

Right now I'm scared of looking at my backlog because I'm afraid I will find important work there which is very overdue and don't want to face the guilt of 'owning up' to myself that I've been procrastinating so badly, or face the anxiety that someone's going to come knocking.

I know that makes no rational sense (the best way to reduce anxiety would be to get through my work), but there it is.

Anyone else ever feel similarly? And if so how do you tackle it?

I suggest doing a full review. This way, you get to see it as a regrouping. You are not admitting failure, you are collecting your assets, information, resources, etc. and drawing up a new plan. Just hunker down and devote some hours to going through it all. Start a new list or whatever makes sense.

The key to this is to start over. Don't FIX it, completely rePLAN it.

I find this works for me.

Hi Daniel,

It might not work for you but I find the use of time boxes helpful. X = 30 mins and / = less than 30 mins (I count it as 15 mins) if the time box is cut short.

I then look at how much time I've put in over a week. This makes me feel that I've made progress.

This follows a similar approach to the Now Habit by Neil Fiore. It works particularly well with AF (any version). In fact, Neil Fiore recommends setting a limit of 20 quality hours per week. But you could adjust this to suit your needs and for what you feel may be realistic each day / week.

When I use AF4, I enter the date on the line. I'll then use the line with the date to mark my X's and /'s.

Good luck on getting through it!

Mike - I think you're probably right. I suspect the reason I have been reluctant to do that is that I worry that making new plans ends up being further procrastination, rather than getting on with things. But actually it can help calm me down, refocus me and end up getting me more productive. So I think I'll do that with what remains of the working day.

Leon - I think that might prove useful once I'm 'up-and-running' again, so thanks, I will try that out.

It's easy to say "just do something" or "break the tasks up further", but when I get into that situation, I can't see the other options. I've found that the best option at that point is to start with a brand new list, writing down whatever is in my head at the moment, and working from there, adding tasks as they come to my attention. I usually know what tasks are the ones I'm avoiding and they get written down, often rephrased or broken down further, but written fresh. Once I get the hang of my daily tasks again (usually about a week later), I can start to think, "now, what have I been forgetting" or "what's one task I've been avoiding" and go back to the old list to see what is still not on my list. Usually, my brain has remembered most of the things that are important, or someone else has reminded me of them, and I've done something on it.

The important thing is to get moving again on current tasks. I've found it's better to keep my brain free of these log jams, even if it means some tasks get written down multiple times; as opposed to clearing a backlog (which is full of the things I've been worrying about). The very existence of a backlog is sometimes more stressful than any of the tasks on it.

Good luck.

If you find yourself chronically in this situation.

The best thing is to take a realistic view of the world and your importance in it:

Not Very.

If you don't believe it, prove it to yourself.

Whatever horrible thing you think might happen, go do it. Whatever bogey-man you think might find out, go show them your unfinished work. See that the world doesn't fall apart. Then do the work or not using. You probably just don't want to do it anyway, so you can just toss that backlog in the garbage and get on with life.

Or you can go to therapy forever to learn that lesson for a much higher price.

Or you can try another "trick" to do what you are terrified of admitting you don't want to.

I'll send you a check for my fee.

>>I'll send you a check for my fee. <<

Norman, I'll contact you off list and let you know what my address is where you can send the cheque. Thanks!

Daniel, I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt for avoidance but decluttered it about 10 years ago. I also have a T-shirt that says "Just frickin' do it!" That T-shirt fits a lot better nowadays.
Be kind to yourself, but not too kind. It's one of the character building exercises we all have to go through to just face your fears. It comes down to the kind of person you want to be and moving towards that. It's nothing more than a habitual way of doing things or reacting to things and you can change that permanently.
You've got some good advice on here, including Norman's - here's some more on this thread from way back:
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/682167#post682876

This thread might be helpful too:
:
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/621814

Congratulations on recognizing the issue, this puts you ahead of 99% of the people who have the same problem and don't take responsibility. I agree with what other have said in that lots of new lists or planning will not get any of the backlog done. It may make more sense to see if some of it can be crossed off. If no one is screaming for something, it may not be needed anymore. You may be able to prune the backlog and low and behold the world may look differently.

I would simply highlight what you deem to be the backlog and speak to whom you owe the item(s) and see if they still need it and come up with a realistic time to get it to them. You may be surprised what goes away and what other resources people may offer to help you get unstuck.

As far as productivity goes, the simpler my system got the more productive I got. All of the methods of how to write lists, where to enter things, how to prioritize them, how to cross them off, how to process lists were a huge drain for me both psychologically and from a time perspective.

What has helped me is a simple place to record what I need to do and a system to find things, which previously was a time waster for me. I personally never rewrite a list until the notebook I am using is full and I have to start another one.

Good Luck

Gerry
http://www.simple-time-management.com

There are probably as many different ways to handle anxiety as there are people who experience it. Some people need to smash it with a big hammer, others need finer adjustments. All any other person can do is show you a tool--you have to pick the one that feels right in your hand and take a few whacks at your problems with it to see if it'll work. Some tools might work with one set of anxieties but not the next time. If you need to, go to an expert and pay for advice, whether a therapist or life coach, or even a pastor or priest can often help. Sometimes the anonymity of the internet is useful, other times you need a real face-to-face conversation to figure out what's going on and what to do about it.

New time management systems, motivational tweaks, therapy, and medication are all possible tools that you should keep in mind. If you find the right tool in internet forums or books, great. If nothing you can do on your own works, that's what the professionals are there for. The important thing is to be able to do what you need to do. It is possible to learn new skills and change your thought patterns, so keep trying methods until something works for you.

Hi Gerry,

Your posts are always helpful and you are correct -- the elegance of simplicity is that a system is in the background and helps you along without the system itself taking a significant amount of time and effort.

-David

<<Or you can go to therapy forever to learn that lesson for a much higher price.>>

I'd Fisk you're entire post but don't have the time.

You're understanding of (I'm assuming long-term) therapy is quite poor.

The above should read:

your & your.

Gotta run.

Daniel, having just spent the last two days attacking a (large) pile of papers which had accumulated for various reasons and not been attended to for some time I was experiencing the same feelings, guilt, embaressment, shame etc at not having addressed what I know to be things requiring urgent attention. Some things need a fairly quick action others more substantial. I will need to speak directly to people whom I have let down by not meeting a deadline or completed a commitment. Being in this place is very, very unpleasant.

I decided to take the pile work through it, breaking it down into three piles - junk, filing, action required. It took a while but enabled me to then just concentrate on sorting the "action" pile by project/task and then working through those. I have established what needs doing, for whom and where appropriate got a plan to do it. The hardest part has been picking up the phone to talk it through with people, not always easy conversations, but having started it, so far the world has not fallen in and I have a better sense of order. I am putting actions into DWM and using my ticker file to get things off the desk but still on the radar.

Jaqueline is right about Just frigin do it! Norman is right in that (mostly) these things are not important in the scheme of things, although habitually getting like this isn't good for us personally and the trust and beleif of others in us.

Good luck

Avrum wrote (apparently in reply to Norman U.): "I'd Fisk you're entire post but don't have the time. "

For those who (like me) hadn't know the jaron "to Fisk," here are a few interesting references:

http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fisking.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

http://web.archive.org/web/20040416224040/http://andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2001_12_09_dish_archive.html#7786744

I agree with above. The only cure is "Just do it" approach. You (and me as well) have to be brave to risk and win or remain mediocre. That's like any business: you risk, invest and win or you don't risk, don't invest and remain where you are (sometimes you risk and lose but that's another story, not for my motivational speech...) . If you are already in a position you enjoy then probably it's time to stop doing and retire :)

Any comments?

Hi Daniel,

Another thought...This technique idea has been discussed on the forum before so I'm sure other will be able to chip in.

I find it more manageable, less overwhelming, to just enter a keyword or phrase onto my list, e.g. OUTLOOK (Processing email) or WARDROBE (I'm re organising my wardrobe).

I then keep everything related to the project etc. seperately. To do this I use Gerry's ideas on just using one reporter's notebook / stenopad to write everything into.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas and most of all support, this is such a lovely forum. Thanks too to Jacqueline for those links to other threads, it is actually a really big help to be reminded that lots of people have the same problems! Thanks also to Norman U for reminding me of an important truth and helping me get some perspective.

For me personally (I guess everyone is different) I found Jessica's suggestion about writing a fresh list from memory of the most anxiety-provoking items to be a good way in, and I think I will probably do Mike's review once I've got the worst of it under control.

As an extra point, I've also remembered how stressed I get with piles of paper etc all over my desk, and while I know tidying can be just as much a form of procrastination as anything else, getting an initial feeling of control over my workspace (even if it's just putting things in neat piles) does bring my anxiety levels down significantly.

Thanks again to EVERYONE - I really mean it!

Daniel,

While it can certainly be procrastination to clean your workspace, it really can be helpful. I found that when I had something that I was putting off, cleaning my desk so that the top was totally empty then putting that ONE folder I needed to work on in the center, somehow prepared my mind to get to work. It also removed distractions from view, as well as from the back of my mind as I knew that everything was in its place and could be quickly found.

I eventually developed the habit of doing this before going home at night. Then I'd come in to a clean desk every morning. When it became a security procedure to leave a clean locked up desk at night ... no sweat, I was already there ;-)

Well I've worked through the things that were most stressing me out today, and have a plan to clear the most pressing part of my backlog by the end of the week. Feel massively more in control now, thanks again to everyone on this wonderful forum!

Daniel I have btdt many times. The issue that I haven't seen addressed that can be preventative is thought management.

As soon as your backlog or pile gets to the point that you start thinking things like, "This will take forever" or "I am probably late on something" change the thoughts to, "I have handled bigger piles before" or "It won't take but a few minutes to look it over," etc. Of course, the quicker you get to it the better but take steps to separate the work from past negative experiences. Move to a new location and/or put it in a new container to process. I still practically get the runs when I see the university library where I racked up hundreds in fines. The funny thing is they forgave the fines when I brought in the books. I just didn't want to face the person checking them in. Now I know that I could have returned them by telling myself it would take five minutes to return them and no one would care!!

Even when people aren't happy with us we can usually fix things up pretty quickly. People who I have missed appointments with, for example, have almost always missed them with me, too. We have to lighten up. Hope you're still on the upswing!

Sorry Avrum about your sacred cow.

One needs to see a therapist for "procrastination" about as much as one needs an electrician to change a light bulb.

Mel:

"We need to lighten up."

Add this to my remarks if I did not include it. Folks take themselves waaaayyyy toooo seriously.

<<Sorry Avrum about your sacred cow. >>

Nothing holy, just my profession. As well, it so happens that good therapy has resolved many of my own long standing issues. Critics of therapy often fall into two camps:

* psychiatric patients who haven't been helped by meds/ect/therapy etc
* people who know little about therapy (theory or practice) but are experts in projection/denial, etc. in their personal lives.

The irony about procrastination is... even with all the advice, tweaks, etc., people are still, in 2010, struggling with getting the important things done. This leads me to believe that the procrastination, for most people is an emotional issue. Though I can empathize why we'd rather believe in "just do it".

I won't get into a detailed discussion over the merits of "therapy". There as many therapies as Christian denominations and the efficacy of any are almost impossible to determine in any rigorous manner. And I work in the field of research but do not practice.

What we do know is that therapists make a good living at what they do.

That all said. I have been in therapy many times with different approaches.

"Procrastination" is not a reason to be in therapy. All you need to "overcome" procrastination can be written on a pamphlet. Honesty is essential, and intractable dishonesty might be a reason to enter therapy, speak with a priest, or confide in a good friend.

Let me help your practice and clients by changing one of your sentences:

"People are still, in 2010, struggling with getting the important things done."

"People are still, in 2010, struggling with getting things done."

Words like "important" run rampant in the language of a "procrastinator".

For such "issues" like procrastination, I recommend looking at the simple and elegant Moritan therapeutic approach made most approachable to the Westerner by David Reynolds in his texts on what he calls "constructive living".

The other half of "Constructive Living": Naikan can be quite helpful as well.

Avrum, if you are simply curious in my interests in general: it is the development of Mortian therapy, Naikan and their similarities and differences to so-called second-wave CBTs, particularly Linehan's DBT.

As matter of faith, I believe therapy to be a God-send for certain human experiences, but not for such simple matters as "procrastination".

Norman - we have more in common than I thought. What's up with the snarky jabs?

Thanks for the entertainment, you two. Norman, why didn't I make a good living as a psychologist? I must have been fixing my patients too quickly. ;-) I have been reading Time Management for Unmanageable People by Ann McGee-Cooper on Jacqueline's recommendation. Her thinking on these issues is much different than yours, Norman, yet could have the same positive result. Your approach seems to be to insist that the time-challenged person simply do what the naturally organized do. Ann's contention would likely be that this strategy will be about as successful as telling an introvert to get out and socialize more. I can force myself into certain TM habits for a short time before I either get depressed or quit.

Could it be that we all have different gifts and need an approach that is sometimes out of the box? Let's take David Drake. Yes, he switches up strategies a lot, but also does more than the majority of people. If switching things up and posting here helps him do what he does best, why should we give him a hard time about it, kwim? Because there is one right way to do things? To me it's the difference between ending dinner with friends my dh's way (putting his hands on the table with a thump and saying Let's go!) or my way (telling my friends how much fun I've had, planning to do it again, getting my purse out). Which way is best?

I submit that the biggest problem people like David and me have is feeling like we aren't producing in the right way. We try our best to be day in and day out kinds of people but it destroys our strengths. There is room for small changes and improvement of course. But I think it's fine to change up your system often! It's worked for me!

Avrum:

"Norman - we have more in common than I thought. What's up with the snarky jabs?"

You ain't read for the iron(ic) hooks yet.

Mel:

"Thanks for the entertainment, you two. Norman, why didn't I make a good living as a psychologist? I must have been fixing my patients too quickly. ;-) "

You're welcome. You were probably being ironic, but you are most likely correct. Either that or you had scruples. The things therapists allows their patients to pay for!

I didn't read the rest of your post, because I did not see my name mentioned. Since you are the wisest next to me, I am sure some good stuff was said.

Norman, in all seriousness when I could see that my clients had no inclination to change I quit seeing them. I know of therapists who see their clients for more than a decade! That seems very unethical to me. I wasn't being paid to be anyone's pal.

And yes, Norman, there were some real gems in my post above. Next time I am fixing to impart my great wisdom I will scatter your name throughout so you don't miss any of the goodies. Lol

<<I could see that my clients had no inclination to change I quit seeing them>>

How did you know this?

<<I know of therapists who see their clients for more than a decade! That seems very unethical to me.>>

Where do you draw the line? 1 year? 3 years? 7 years?

As a commitment-phone, I had lost all hope of establishing an emotionally committed relationship. It took 4 years of 2 x's a week therapy - among other things - to work through this issue. My therapist fee was covered by the province of British Columbia. Was he unethical? If I paid him out of pocket, would that arrangement become unethical?

When I asked clients to do things and they would consistently not do them, what is the point? I cannot say whether your therapy was unethical or not. You obviously feel you benefitted. I have a problem with therapists who feed dependencies for their own gain. I have a friend who has seen the same psychologist for ten years. She talks to him. She doesn't have a diagnosis. I would have aided her in finding friends to talk to. That's what she needs. The woman doesn't have the $ to support her therapist either. I will say that my clients never disagreed with my advice to quit or transfer, but that's because from the get go I avoided unhealthy dependencies. I wasn't an analyst so that contributes to my desire for short-term work. The only time I advocate long-term care is for schizophrenia and bipolar and the like when the consistent relationship can keep people stable. Even then, a Ph. D. is likely not as important as a caring influential person.

Yeah, what Mel said.

Brief Therapy not only benefits insurance companies, but it really makes sense. If the therapist can't get to the heart of the issue in a few hours then I would suggest that the client needs another therapist. It may be the case that a client needs lots of sessions, I would see that as working progressively on issues that come up after the initial ones are solved. But to work on a single problem for 10 years is absurd.

<<When I asked clients to do things and they would consistently not do them>>

Most clients have a plethora of people - parents, friends, bosses - telling them what to do. I find it odd that you were that proscriptive.

<<I have a problem with therapists who feed dependencies for their own gain>>

How do you know this? Moreover, couldn't all service workers - clergy, lawyers, coaches, etc - be painted with a similar brush? And if so, how do you choose the truly altruistic from the profiteers? In Toronto, most psychiatrists - young and old - choose to practice (long term) psychodynamic psychotherapy. Because their services are provincially covered, they receive the same pay for brief or long-term work. Given the same salary - would you have the same problem with the psychodynamic psychiatrists (by virtue of their commitment - long term - to their clients) vs the behavioral/CBT psychiatrists?

<<She doesn't have a diagnosis>>

How would that make a difference? The entire DSM debacle is, at best, a tool to help therapists bill for service. I'm not sure how a diagnosis would make any difference vis-a-vis the efficacy of your friends therapy.

<<I will say that my clients never disagreed with my advice to quit or transfer>>

It takes chutzpah to speak for your clients - particularly when using "never", "always". Regardless, I find disagreement to be - as Irving Yalom stated: "grist for the mill".

<<If the therapist can't get to the heart of the issue in a few hours then I would suggest that the client needs another therapist>>

Oy vey.

You find it odd that I would proscribe? That has to be because of your psychodynamic bent. I find it odd that you wouldn't. How am I being arrogant to say that I never had a client disagree with my suggestion to terminate or transfer? Of course I mean that they didn't tell me they disagreed. And yes I still have a problem with ten years of therapy esp. with normal people like my friend because it creates unhealthy dependencies. This bothers me in particular because of the power differential in the relationship. Honestly it's probably silly to discuss this because a) we obviously have different approaches to therapy and b) we both don't know the cases in question and if we did, might very well agree. But if you insist on debating, I will probably respond as I have too much free time ATM, lol

>>> <<If the therapist can't get to the heart of the issue in a few hours then I would suggest that the client needs another therapist>>

Oy vey. <<<

Now why am I not surprised that you would undertake to effect change without knowing what you need to change? That is so much my experience with the whole business ... status quo all the way. Need help? No problem. Just buy me a boat! LOL ;-)

>>> Most clients have a plethora of people - parents, friends, bosses - telling them what to do. I find it odd that you were that proscriptive. <<<

OY VEY! ;-)

That is another of the standard, status quo, ineffective approaches. "OMG, we can't tell him anything ... we might be wrong." What in the hell does that approach assume? The client would not need to come for help if he knew the answers. You can play cat and mouse with the client and waste 10 years time and money or just tell the client what to do. I'm just imagining an auto mechanic saying: "Your car stalls? O.K. come in for an hour a week for the next 10 years and you will eventually discover why this is so and what you can do to fix it." Incredible that anyone would take that approach and keep a straight face.

As to having lots of people, number is not the issue. People need the right kind of friends. They need others who will listen and reflect for them. They don't need to pay someone for that. The person they pay should be prepared to tell them what to do, not listen passively.

>>> <<I have a problem with therapists who feed dependencies for their own gain>>

How do you know this? <<<

Oh come on now. You be Socrates and I can be Gorgeous?

>>> Moreover, couldn't all service workers - clergy, lawyers, coaches, etc - be painted with a similar brush? And if so, how do you choose the truly altruistic from the profiteers? <<<

Firstly, pointing to someone who has LESS ethics is hardly an answer. Secondly, having ethics is not being altruistic. Altruism is a proper subset of "ethics". IOW, it is one school of ethical thought. I am not "altruistic". I believe altruism is a vice, not a virtue. If I do something for someone and take no money for it is not out of altruism, it is out of selfishness. I am doing it because I am getting other things in return ... such as getting to learn something new. One does not have to sacrifice himself in order to behave ethically. I do not think that taking more money than one is entitled to is ethical even if I am not altruistic. It is not ethical under many ethical systems.

How does one choose practitioners who are ethical from those who are unethical? The same way one chooses an ethical auto mechanic. Shopping, asking around, doing research and trusting one's intuition about people ... if one has good intuition.

>>> In Toronto, most psychiatrists - young and old - choose to practice (long term) psychodynamic psychotherapy. Because their services are provincially covered, they receive the same pay for brief or long-term work. Given the same salary - would you have the same problem with the psychodynamic psychiatrists (by virtue of their commitment - long term - to their clients) vs the behavioral/CBT psychiatrists? <<<

Absolutely. You seem to think that the client has nothing better to do with his life than come visit. The client is there because something is interfering with his enjoyment of his life. To waste his time is not ethical, IMO. Just because a therapist can take the government for a ride rather than the client, that does not make it ethical.

>>> <<She doesn't have a diagnosis>>

How would that make a difference? The entire DSM debacle is, at best, a tool to help therapists bill for service. I'm not sure how a diagnosis would make any difference vis-a-vis the efficacy of your friends therapy. <<<

WHA? Who said anything about the DSM? The DSM is a joke. Yes, it is the billing standard ... that kind of brain dead approach could have been predicted. But one must have a diagnosis of some kind. You need to know why the client is doing what he is doing that he feels he needs to change. You can't change anything if you don't know what you want to change. If a client comes in and says "I need help. I'm going to be fired." You can't start working on that. You need to find out why he is going to be fired. Is he getting to work late? Then maybe the problem lies in the area of keeping commitments or getting up early. If it is because he has fist fights with his coworkers, then maybe anger has something to do with it. You can't just make assumptions and go to work. And you can't spend 10 years talking about how unfair life is. "How do you feel about being fired?" ROTFLMAO ;-)

>>> <<I will say that my clients never disagreed with my advice to quit or transfer>>

It takes chutzpah to speak for your clients - particularly when using "never", "always". Regardless, I find disagreement to be - as Irving Yalom stated: "grist for the mill". <<<

Disagreement that they should find a new therapist? The mill will be grinding that grist on its own then.

Mike - from the get go, you've had a chip on your shoulder about psychotherapy. One point where Mel and i agree on is the following:
"Honestly it's probably silly to discuss this..."

<<You find it odd that I would proscribe? That has to be because of your psychodynamic bent>>

My bent is Systemic, but I was trained in behavioral/CBT tecniques. I left the latter because:

* a cursory history of short-term therapy has more to do with managed care, and less to do with efficacy
* in the long term, short-term models have poor results
* theory was shallow and uninspring
* few, if any, of my clients (in hospitals, addiction centers & now private practice) struggled with uni-dimensional issues - the kind CBT loves to treat

<< How am I being arrogant to say that I never had a client disagree with my suggestion to terminate or transfer?>>

Not just arrogant, but probably very wrong. Clients telll us many things - sometimes to reduce their anxiety, other times to reduce ours.

<<with normal people like my friend because it creates unhealthy dependencies>>

I'm not sure what "normal" means, but I do know something is fishy if your friend - who can't afford therapy - has spent 10 years padding someone's pocket. I'd say both parties are suspect. Perhaps your friend has more issues than you're alluding to. If you're so concerned, perhaps you should report this therapist to his/her college.

<<But if you insist on debating>>

Mel - I find these debates much more interesting when the clinician is trained in (or at least experienced) the approach they're debunking. I have training in both, and chose based on efficacy and personal interest. How did you come to your decision?

Avrum, it may be silly to discuss, but certainly not silly for you to consider. Whatever Mike's attitude, he makes valid points. I love your mechanic analogy, Mike. Lol Long-term psychodynamic therapy has fallen from favor here with good reason. Have you ever done family therapy, Avrum? It allows for access to the core issues very quickly. I loved it.

<<Long-term psychodynamic therapy has fallen from favor here with good reason>>

Yet on the rise amongst psychiatry residents in Toronto. Some say this is due to shows like In Treatment and Sopranos, some say it's due to the poor (long-term) results of medication and/or brief therapy.

<<Have you ever done family therapy, Avrum? It allows for access to the core issues very quickly.>>

It's my primary mode of working. I'm a HUGE fan of Murray Bowen. Actually, I'm finishing up post-grad work with a school in the States. By the way, did you know that, according to Dr. Bowen, the average length of Systemic Family therapy was 3-4 years?

An emotional appeal (really, you should read the entire post) from Penelope Trunk on the link between procrastination and emotions:

"And I learned a bit about procrastination. I had been so angry at myself for waiting so long to write these thank you notes. But I do not procrastinate because I am lazy or unorganized. I am not those things. I procrastinated because I could not bring myself to think about the operation again. I was not emotionally capable of writing the notes until tonight. Sometimes procrastination is the best tool we have for taking care of ourselves."
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/01/01/my-clean-slate-for-2007/

I'm interested to know the direction therapy is taking where you are. Thanks for the update. I haven't practiced in more than a decade so what do I know? But I honestly can't imagine doing family therapy for 3-4 years or longer! The therapy I did was so intense, it never could have continued that long. I wonder if our culture is more independence focused compared to yours? In 1989 I visited Vienna where the Freudian analysts there would see bedwetters for years-into adulthood! We all found it ludicrous.

Avrum,

>>> Mike - from the get go, you've had a chip on your shoulder about psychotherapy. <<<

Well, that certainly does sidestep the issues. I guess that disagreeing with you qualifies has "having a chip". Oh well. Moving along...

>>> One point where Mel and i agree on is the following:
"Honestly it's probably silly to discuss this..." <<<

I have to agree. When all that comes back is "if you did what I did you'd know that I'm right and you're wrong" ... yes, then it is silly to continue.

<<I'm interested to know the direction therapy is taking where you are>>

I have a waitlst :)

in general, medication. Sad, but family drs are overwhelmed, talk-oriented psychiatrists can have 2-3 yr waitlists, etc.

<<can't imagine doing family therapy for 3-4 years>>

You do what works - from a Systemic perspective that means increased differentiation (& this takes time).

So Toronto docs prefer slow and steady therapies over quick and intense. And they can't keep up with the backlog of patients. Makes me wonder...

Alan -

For over a year, I've received physio/massage therapy for a frozen shoulder (finally getting my range back). I have no doubt pain killers offer a "quick and intense" relief of my symptoms. I'm more interested in treating the problem, not the symptom. Kapish?

Sorry, I thought we were talking methods of psychotherapy, not physical.

@Norman U: Thank you for the references to David Reynolds and constructive living. They triggered something I'd read "a while" ago and I went off to find Reynolds' books which will, I believe, be of use with an ongoing project of mine.